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I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on a question on invisibility. If an invisible wizard can cast a summon monster spell without becoming visible, can they use Create Pit without becoming visible?
Rules state, "an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear."
> More here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/invisibility
Create Pit spell states, "You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extra-dimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size. Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material. You can create the pit in the deck of a ship as easily as in a dungeon floor or the ground of a forest. Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to avoid falling into it."
> More here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-pit
Summon Monster states: "This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability."
> More here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster
I argue that since it's conjuring something it's a passive attack like summoning a monster and will not effect the invisibility, but I haven't found anything that specifically states it.
Thoughts? Help? Thanks in advance!
I'd say you could create a pit away from the enemy, but if any of them have to make saving throws right then, it breaks the invisibility.
The spell Create Pit's school is conjuration (creation).
This is clearly in the realm of GM fiat. The rules basically state that direct attacks break invisibility. The question is if this is an indirect attack or not. Hence, GM fiat.
Personally, I like tonyz answer. If the pit was created underneath the enemy and they have to make an immediate save then it is a direct attack.
To put this a different way: Compare it to Cloudkill. I doubt we would debate that cloudkill would break invisibility on the round that you cast it (it does).
- Gauss
Acid arrow is also conjuration (creation), but that requires a ranged touch attack.
The question is a reflex save because of something you conjured considered an "attack". If you cast a Fireball it requires a reflex save and no attack roll.
So I'm think I'll agree with tonyz as well.
Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone!
I have another question, this one directed at tonyz and harmor - what about when a wizard summons monster? The wizard doesn't become visible when his creature successfully attacks or does something that requires an enemy to roll against a DC.
Being able to sit invisible, summoning creatures to fight for you is a pretty powerful strategy - and I think if that's allowed, so should creating pits on a battlefield.
Just playing devil's advocate so I have a solid feeling one way or the other...
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For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space.
BLZbub, summoned creatures are not you directly hurting an enemy. Create Pit if it does so on the round you cast it.
Create Pit examples:
Example 1: You create a pit underneath the enemy, this breaks your invisibility because it is a direct attack.
Example 2: you create a pit in front of the enemy, he is not required to make a reflex save because he is not in the area of the pit. Thus, it does not break invisibility.
Compare this to Summon Monster:
You summon a creature who then goes to harm the enemy. You are not directly harming the enemy.
Strictly speaking: Summon Monster is specifically excluded. What is being discussed here is that does a spell that immediately harms an enemy (Create Pit) qualify if there is no enemy to immediately harm.
Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.
To pull the relevant phrases out:
1) All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks.2) All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks.
3) Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.
Create Pit created underneath an enemy qualifies as #1 AND #2.
Create Pit created with no enemy in the area MIGHT qualify as #1. It does not qualify as #2.
#3 specifically excludes Summon Monster spells.
So we are really debating #1. Does a pit created in an area where there are no enemies constitute an offensive combat action? That is where GM fiat comes in. My GM opinion is 'no'.
However, this can open a can of worms. The next thing the Player would be asking is 'GREAT! Can I cast Cloudkill and send it off in that direction? There are no bad guys where I summon it!' At which point I throw a book at the player and tell him that because cloudkill will eventually intersect a little animal it is an offensive combat action. :P
- Gauss
Jiggy and tonyz have it.
Cast the pit away from anyone, invis stays. Cast it within the area of someone, and you lose the invis.
I think that's a fair rule, StreamOfTheSky. I'll make my case to the GM and see what he says. Thanks everyone!
One of my strategies is to have a quickened Silent Image,
Cast the quickened silent image in a 10 by 10 foot area overlapping the area that that I want my pit to be, making the illusion look exactly like the terrain it is over, then I place my pit directly in the same location, and wallah! an invisible pit!
Muah ha ha ha! The first time I used it, the DM increased the DC of the reflex save if they failed the to save against the illusion, which he also increased the DC on, due to the fact that the illusion reflected what was underneath it. If you also have greater invisibility cast as well, so much the better. Another time I had quickened silence memorized. then i cast silent image, round 1, round 2 I cast silence and create acid pit... freaking awesome. Not only did enemies teammates slowly disappear, but they couldn't hear the screams pain and death.
Muah ha ha ha!
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The danger of pits are overstated anyhow. Most people forget that for just about any creature the climb DC is reduced by 5 (using corners) and that for large creatures or creatures with a 10foot reach the climb DC is reduced by 15 (using corners and the adjacent walls).
At that point even a DC35 pit becomes doable.
Pits are do minor damage with major inconvienience to the enemies. Great for breaking up formations.
- Gauss