Astral.Modernity
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I'm pretty new to Pathfinder myself, my experiences with it limited to playing 4-5 sessions at Gencon this year and found out quickly that it is almost identical to 3.5 D&D (which I played for a number of years). Regardless, I'm joining a sanctioned Pathfinder Society game and want to build a character with optimal power that I will enjoy carrying through. I've got the flavor part handled, but I'm looking to create the best build I can for my ninja possible. I was hoping to get some good ideas and thoughts going forward for his build.
I picked up the Kitsune Race boon at Gencon and the additional trait boon, so I'm building with 3 traits and as a Kitsune. I've got my 1st level build below and I was thinking the character would be more melee focused and take advantage of Disguise - I'm open to anything though.
To start with:
Kitsune Ninja
Faction - shadow Lodge
Strength 8
Dexterity 19
Constitution 14
Intelligence 8
Wisdom 12
Charisma 14
Racial Power - Change Shape
Traits:
Indomitable Faith - +1 will save
Mana Wastes Survivalist - +1 Fort save
Reactionary - +2 initiative
Skill Training:
Acrobatics
Bluff
Disguise
Escape Artist
Linguistics
Perception
Sense Motive
Stealth
Feats:
Weapon Finesse
------------
Future feats will probably include Vulpine Pounce (sounds pretty sweet)
Anyone have any thoughts?
Kerney
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Stats-- I think putting the points to get a 19 dex is a mistake. Some classes are good with one stat out roof (like casters) but with skill monkeys it is a mistake. Go for a more balanced approach and a slightly lower primary stat. Also, remember you need Str for encumbrance if nothing else, so dumping it is a mistake. Cha also might be higher for more Ki.
May I suggest something like this--
Str 10 (2 pts)
Dexterity 18 (10 pts)
Constitution 14 (5 pts)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 15 (3pts)
or
Strength 12 (5 pts)
Dexterity 18 (10 pts)
Constitution 14 (pts5)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 8 (-2 points)
Charisma 14 (2 points)
Then use the indomitable faith trait for a +1 will save
Argus The Slayer
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I'm going to suggest leaving your STR at 10, since you are going to be relying on Sneak damage and not raw STR for damage anyway - and you are using DEX for attack, AC and reflex saves. A 19 is a great starting DEX for you.
Strength 10 (2 pts)
Dexterity 19 (13 pts)
Constitution 14 (pts5)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 8 (-2 points)
Charisma 14 (2 points)
A 19 DEX (20 when you bump it at level 4) is going to keep your attack high enough to hit, which is always a concern with a 3/4 BAB class like the Ninja. Priority magic item? +2 DEX belt as soon as you can afford it. You will have a lot of skill points. Try to keep 3-4 maxed out for optimal effectiveness (Perception, Diplomacy, Acrobatics and UMD?), a few at decent levels (Stealth, Sleight of Hand?) and a handful at low to moderate, to help with faction missions (Knowledge skills, Linguistics, Bluff, etc). Ninjas are very potent outside of combat, but need to work hard in combat to get their sneak damage.
Make sure you pickup Vanish at level 2 for your first Ninja trick - it is AMAZING for keeping you form getting hit - and giving you sneak attack damage when you can't get to the flank - or allowing you to be invisible while you stroll around your enemy, to get INTO flank, avoiding attacks of opportunity.
Booksy
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OP stated he was new to PFS, most newer players don't have a racial boon. If he does, congrats =D.
Was merely trying to save him the 'oh, I can't play that race, but my build kinda relies on it' moment that can happen 5 min before you sit at the table. If, Jared, you don't have a racial boon, I recommend Half-Elf. Free Skill Focus will give you +3 to your favorite skill, and Keen Senses Racial Trait boosts the every necessary Perception.
Regardless of race, it looks like you're going more for a Skill Rogue then a Combat Rogue. Weapon Finesse is actually a feat you can gain from Rogue Talents and I'd gain it that way and level 2. That way you can spend your feat slot further boosting your skills with some thing like Alertness (Perception, Sense Motive), Deceitful (Bluff, Disguise) or Stealthy (Escape Artist, Stealth).
*** EDIT rogue = ninja XD ***
*** Re-Edit = +1 to the suggestion of Vanish, the Master Trick Invisible Blade is complete win.
Argus The Slayer
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OP stated he was new to PFS, most newer players don't have a racial boon. If he does, congrats =D.
Was merely trying to save him the 'oh, I can't play that race, but my build kinda relies on it' moment that can happen 5 min before you sit at the table. If, Jared, you don't have a racial boon, I recommend Half-Elf.
I picked up the Kitsune Race boon at Gencon and the additional trait boon, so I'm building with 3 traits and as a Kitsune.
Jiggy
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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19 DEX at level 1 is a mistake. Costs too many points for what it gets you. Up through 4th level it's identical to an 18. Once you hit 4th, it's a mere +1 to hit and to a save that you've already got through the roof and don't really need more of.
The build points you save by sticking with 18 can take your STR from 10 to 12, allowing you to not be encumbered by your armor and weapons alone.
| RainyDayNinja RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 |
I agree that 19 DEX is overdoing it. Keep in mind that you're still medium-sized, so your armor and weapons are still at full weight. You can't afford to dump STR. I'd go with a spread like 12/18/13/8/12/14, and put your level 4 point into CON. That should give you plenty of carrying capacity, and a smidge more damage.
Jiggy
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Checked the math:
Chain shirt is 25lbs, until you can afford mithral (12.5lbs).
• 8 STR puts your light load cap at 26lbs. That lets you carry up to 1lb besides your armor. Obviously, this doesn't work. Even with a mithral chain shirt, a weapon or two will put you dangerously close to the line.
• 10 STR caps your light load at 33lbs, leaving you 8lbs for non-armor gear, or 20.5lbs if you go with mithral. That's still really cutting it close by the time you have a main weapon, a cold iron weapon, a silver weapon, and some basic adventuring gear (cloak of resistance and stat belts have weight too, you know).
• 12 STR gets your light load up to 43lbs. Now you finally have some wiggle room.
Astral.Modernity
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Great point, I had the disadvantage of playing in house games which never enforced encumbrance and have never thought about it myself. I really liked the suggested build:
Str 10 (2 pts)
Dexterity 18 (10 pts)
Constitution 14 (5 pts)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 15 (3pts) *especially this, since I can adjust it up and instantly grow my ki points a bit.
However, it is seeming more and more like I need to find a way to manage strength 12, due to the encumbrance issue (I want have space for skill kits and whatnot). Now, I'm not against moving my wisdom to 8, however should I be concerned about the "Save or Die" spells that target my will, since I'm trying towards a character to have longevity with?
Also, what sort of feats & tricks should I look at for my ninja as he levels up? Obviously vanishing trick is beyond legit, as I'm thinking he'd be more of a melee slayer or switch hitter (primarily because flurry of stars seem pretty fantastic) What are everyone's thoughts on the Pressure Points trick?
On the topic of feats, I've heard it discussed that two weapon fighting is really a trap. It is definitely extremely appealing as a feat tree choice with a melee sneak attacker - not sure whether I'm wrong on this or not.
Thanks for the help so far!
Jiggy
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If you're willing to shell out an extra 1,000gp to get a mithral chain shirt, and you pay really close attention to what else you carry, you could get by with 10 STR. Alternatively, once you have some prestige points, you could spend some (I forget how many) to get a porter to carry your crap for you. He essentially disappears during combat though, so you'd need enough STR to carry anything you wanted to have constant access to. But things like rope, torches, skill kits, ten-foot poles and other stuff that doesn't have to be grabbed in a hurry can be carried around by your porter. So that's an option.
If you do decide to dump something, I'd dump INT before WIS. Why? You've got more skill points than you need! You could dump down to 7 and still have as many skill ranks as a bard or ranger. One stat spread option would be this:
STR 12 (5pts)
DEX 18 (10pts)
CON 14 (5pts)
INT 07 (+4pts)
WIS 11 (1pt)
CHA 15 (3pts)
This way you've got decent carrying capacity, 6 ranks/level, and at 8th level you can bump WIS and get better perception/will.
| RainyDayNinja RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 |
I'd dump INT before WIS, because you already have plenty of skills, and with 14 CON you can afford to use your FCB for skills if you want. Plus, it doesn't look like you're terribly interested in Knowledge skills anyway.
You could pull off TWF, but you might want to invest a Ninja Trick or two in combat feats like Weapon Focus to make it work better, sooner. I think Sneak Attack is the only thing that makes TWF worth it.
If you're willing to shell out an extra 1,000gp to get a mithral chain shirt
You should spring for the Mithral shirt anyway, because it increases your max DEX bonus to 6. That will matter once you get your DEX belt.
ossian666
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If you end up going TWF then I recommend choosing ONE weapon and sticking with that in BOTH hands. It may be 1 more damage to use a slightly bigger weapon but that Weapon Focus RDN is recommending up above will pay off more if you stick to the same weapon in both hands.
Keep in mind that characters in PFS that rely on 2 weapons get REALLY disappointed when they find out how expensive and material dependent it is...I'm willing to bet a few people here may even recommend going a STR build with a reach weapon instead as an option to mull over...
Astral.Modernity
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Very good points have been made - I'm definitely going to shell out for the Mithral Shirt and the Dex belt to enhance the character as I go along.
As far as feats go, Weapon Focus is most certainly in my future. I'm trying to figure out what my combat strategy will be, so I can choose my feats and tricks along that path. I really wish I could find a viable way to make Flurry of Stars an optimal part of my character, but it seems with Pathfinder Society (correct me if I'm wrong) that Flurry of Stars is a trick you really have to have a hyper focus in - the gold and feat investiture has be channeled toward magical shuriken, precise shot, etc. I can see that at higher levels, it will be become more difficult to hit with your shuriken, since it seems tough to enhance them.
Anyway, I think I want to take the Two Weapon tree feat-wise and I think that pressure points and vanishing trick would be my first two tricks; certainly, I would dual wield wakizashis. What suggestions do you have along this route on my path to level 12?
| Jodokai |
I'd dump INT before WIS, because you already have plenty of skills, and with 14 CON you can afford to use your FCB for skills if you want. Plus, it doesn't look like you're terribly interested in Knowledge skills anyway.
Personally I hate dumping INT, I love my Skill Points especially in PFS. Now, I've only made it to 5th level, but I haven't seen a lot of times where I needed a high WILL save.
Astral.Modernity
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Ok, so I've got a couple more questions in regard to my ninja and I should be good to go (unless the answers spur more questions, then maybe not) You all have been great so far; I appreciate the help quite a bit.
1. Flurry of Stars - waste of time?
2. Ninjas have Poison Use, which seemed pretty good when I started building the character, however now I'm not so sure. I was trying to see if there is a way to utilize this skill more than just if I find poisons, I can use them, but, in the context of sanctioned play in Pathfinder Society, I don't think so. It just doesn't seem like you can make enough money to consistently make and use poisions, plus, if I'm not mistaken, I have to have Craft: Posion. Long story short, I would have to pump my craft: poision, buy components for the poison, and use gold in crafting it. All of that said, I don't really understand the system, so I could be completely off-mark here. I wish I could use and create poisons easily. Thoughts?
3. Is it worth it to have a profession and/or craft in Pathfinder Society? I know that one or both (not sure which) gives you gold at the end of each adventure, but is it worth the skill investment?
4. This is more directed at Jiggy, but you intrigued me with the Mithral Breastplate idea. How does that really work, exactly? I wasn't aware I could even wear that without proficiency...
Jiggy
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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4. This is more directed at Jiggy, but you intrigued me with the Mithral Breastplate idea. How does that really work, exactly? I wasn't aware I could even wear that without proficiency...
You can wear any armor you can fit into. Per the Core Rules (Equipment chapter, I believe) wearing armor with which you're not proficient causes the armor check penalty to apply not only to skills, but also to attack rolls.
A mithral breastplate has an ACP of -1.
The Armor Expert trait reduces your ACP by 1.
So the penalty for nonproficient usage of a mithral breastplate is to take a -0 penalty on your attack rolls. ;)
Same goes for shields: if you weren't planning on TWFing or using a two-handed weapon, you can grab yourself a masterwork-or-better buckler (ACP of 0) to boost your AC without penalty (just note that shield-related feats often require proficiency).
So with 18 DEX, a single-weapon ninja at around level 4-5 could have a +1 mithral breastplate and a +1 buckler for an AC of 23 (higher if he can afford a Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 on the armor/shield, etc).
Jiggy
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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1. Flurry of Stars - waste of time?
That depends. Its main value is to get a LOT of attacks in a single round. So if you have a situation where you have sneak attack available outside of flanking (you've beaten them in intitiative, they're blinded, etc), and they're not in melee to give you a -4 to hit, you can just shred somebody with Flurry of Stars.
One idea is a dip into Maneuver Master monk, take Improved Dirty Trick, and lead off your full-attack with Dirty Trick: Blind. If it works, then 5ft step back (which you can do during a full attack) and blow a ki point on Flurry of Stars.
I will point out that with such small damage dice, this is only good when your sneak attack starts to get pretty high - I wouldn't take it until probably 3d6.
2. Ninjas have Poison Use, which seemed pretty good when I started building the character, however now I'm not so sure. I was trying to see if there is a way to utilize this skill more than just if I find poisons, I can use them, but, in the context of sanctioned play in Pathfinder Society, I don't think so. It just doesn't seem like you can make enough money to consistently make and use poisions, plus, if I'm not mistaken, I have to have Craft: Posion. Long story short, I would have to pump my craft: poision, buy components for the poison, and use gold in crafting it. All of that said, I don't really understand the system, so I could be completely off-mark here. I wish I could use and create poisons easily. Thoughts?
Poisons have some issues in PFS. First, you have a short list of what poisons you can acquire, and they're not great. Second, it's not very cost-effective. Third, poisons work better against PCs (who have to think about the next fight, and the next one, etc) than against NPCs (who exist only for the one fight). Most poisons make a victim less effective, but not enough that they really die faster in THAT FIGHT - they'll have a harder time over the course of multiple fights, but that's not really relevant when the victim is the NPC.
3. Is it worth it to have a profession and/or craft in Pathfinder Society? I know that one or both (not sure which) gives you gold at the end of each adventure, but is it worth the skill investment?
You can make a "Day Job" check at the end of each scenario using a Craft, Profession or Perform skill in which you have at least 1 rank. The gold is a pittance - playing up just once will give you more extra gold than an entire career of Day Job checks. If you have such a skill trained anyway, then hey, free gold. If the skill fits your concept, then hey, free gold. But if you're only putting the rank there for the money, don't bother.
| Jodokai |
Flurry of Stars is great when you're facing more than one enemy, you have a few Sneak Attack dice and you've taken the Bleed rogue talent. If you win the init (or use vanish), and give everyone bleed damage early in the combat.
As far as day job, you can use your PP to make different skills day job usable. For example my ranger took Hunter's Lodge and now uses his Survival Skill for day jobs. I'm pretty sure rogue's can do the same thing with Slight of Hand.
Astral.Modernity
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Ok, so as I was finishing up my build, I came up with a few more hard choices.
1. Pressure Points vs. Bleeding Attack, which gives you more mileage, really?
2. Dervish Dance - it's an interesting build, but it leaves me to meet the reqs of Dance (rank two), using a trait to wield a scimitar, and using a feat slot. However, I am tempted, as it gives me +4, eventually +5 to damage per attack. Is it worth it?
3. Keeping in mind I'm building a PFS character, would I be better off going 12 levels of Ninja or should I branch off into a prestige class or multiclass? Any ideas on what would be optimal?