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I've been thinking of a way to make a fighter that I'd like to play. I build alot of "optimized" fighters, but 90% of the fun is done before the first game session, and I tire quickly of the character. As I understand it, the only feat needed for 2-hand damage is power attack, and this has me thinking that there is plenty of space for maneuvers. My damage will be a bit lower, but nothing unbearable. The general idea is to take power attack at level one and pick up 4-6 maneuvers before level 6 when greater/quick maneuver feats show up. Any spare feat slots will be filled with appropriate damage feats, but I want as many maneuvers as possible.
What maneuvers should be focused on, which feats taken, and what weapon used? What races would be good, and why? Is there a particular fighter archetype that would be good? If someone wants to make a full build that would be extra cool. You are, of course, free to tell me this idea is stupid, assuming you can provide supporting evidence, but the idea interests me all the same. This is intended to be 100% fighter, but a good argument for a splash/multiclass is welcome.
Trip is a pretty astounding maneuver. Gives everyone else a better chance to hit and you get a free AoA when they try to stand.
If you take even a single dip into maneuver master monk you get set to do it every round in addition to your normal attacks.
Use your trip first to make sure it goes off then any additional iterative attacks get the prone bonus.
Any weapon with the trip feature gives you a bonus so.. a few to choose from.
I think he probably meant that when wielding a weapon with the trip weapon quality, attack roll enhancing feats or enhancements can be applied to the trip attempt. Like weapon focus and what-not.
Fighter is a good class for Combat Maneuvers; Monks are good too, but they are more unarmed, and may be a fancy you may not like.
For a Race, I recommend Human, as their Favored Class would allow the character to add additional bonuses to their CMD to two Combat Maneuvers of their choice, meaning you can mix and match (and stack) these bonuses to a method you see fit, making it harder for an opponent to go against you in this regard. Plus, that extra Feat and Skill Point (per level) really helps out with some skills, like Acrobatics.
As far as weapons, it depends on what you primarily want to do. Going with a Disarm Weapon or a Trip Weapon may not be a bad idea, as it does give you extra benefits. Generally, anything with a special property to it helps, and the more properties the better (usually).
For focusing on maneuvers, I would recommend Disarm, Grapple, and Dirty Tricks as your primaries, other ones such as Trip and Sunder would be considered Secondaries, since the creatures they effect are quite limited (though they are still quite useful).
For Feats, you said the 1st level feat will be Power Attack. Your Human Feat should be Improved Grapple and your Fighter Bonus 1st would be Improved Dirty Tricks. Afterward, you'd want to focus on taking either the Improved Disarm and Improved Trip/Sunder, or upgrading the two Maneuver Feats to Greater versions.
Generally, a maneuver character is quite nice in debilitating an enemy. You might not deal much damage (unless you grapple), but making the BBEG worthless or severely weakened is just as powerful as felling the beast.
Even that isn't true, any weapon used in a trip will confer the bonus. The only thing trip quality does is allow you to let go of the weapon when you miss the trip attempt by more than 5.
Wait, what? You're saying the difference between a Ranseur and a Guisarme (as it pertains to trip attempts) is that if you fail miserably with a Guisarme, you can drop it, but if you fail miserably with Ranseur, you cannot drop it?
If that's true, that's ridiculous. CAn I see your sources?
All I know of is this:
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.
Is there something else that suggests that any weapon can be used in a trip?
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Is there something else that suggests that any weapon can be used in a trip?
Official blog on weapons and maneuvers
So yeah, dumb as it is, using a trip weapon doesn't actually make your trip any more likely to succeed.
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@Darksol - Ever heard of prereqs?
This is part of the issue I'm having doing it on my own. The power attack pre-req ones are easy to get to, but there's not many and I'm not sure how useful they are. Grapple isn't bad, since improved unarmed is at least sometimes useful, and extra dex isn't that bad, but I'm using a 2-hander which I can't use in a grapple. Combat expertise would just be feat tax, and extra int isn't exciting at all, but the maneuvers in there tend to be the most interesting, though once again I don't know how useful. Alot of my problem is I haven't seen maneuvers used much, so I'm not sure which ones come up often or are useful when they do.
Hmmm... I don't think that changes my mind (I'm sure you're all up in a tizzy on what my personal opinion is). All that seems to say is those three types of maneuvers are the only types of maneuvers that it's appropriate to apply bonuses from feats and what-not as the standard.
It doesn't seem to change the idea that only some specifically designed weapons are able to confer those bonuses.
How are you reading it that says differently?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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From the blog linked previously:
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
Note the complete lack of any "only if using a trip weapon" language. Further down:
Additionally, the polearm master fighter archetype (Advanced Player’s Guide 106) has an ability called sweeping fend that allows the fighter to use any spear or polearm to make bull rush or trip maneuvers. For the bull rush, this is a specific exception that overrides the general rule of “weapon bonuses don’t apply on bull rushes.” For the trip, the text as written is redundant because anyone can already use a weapon as part of a trip attempt, so giving the polearm master this ability has no effect. This ability needs to be updated as follows.
This confirms that the ability to use any ol' polearm for a trip is redundant because that's already how it works.
Additionally, there were follow-up posts by Sean K Reynolds in the discussion thread (such as here and here) confirming this fact. (He even says he dislikes that rule and would prefer that trip weapons gave a +2 like disarm weapons, but that Jason Bulmahn feels differently.)
And finally, this blog entry and the Official FAQ on trip weapons reference each other, the latter having been edited to reflect changes made by the blog.
When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.
Is that enough for ya? ;)
No, that's more than enough. Thanks for taking the time.
It absolutely floors me, though. Consider me prepared to houserule this one for any games I run to something more logical. I mean, how is a Guisarme easier to drop when counter-tripped than a Ranseur?
But yah, for the purposes of this conversation, you seem to be completely right.
Carry on, people. Nothing to see here.
Lore Warden fighter mixed with Maneuver Master monk makes for happy fighting.
Free maneuver(s) with full attacks and prereq ignoring bonus maneuver feats, raw cmb bonuses with extra int skills and points and free C.E.; it's two great tastes that taste great together.
Either LW3/MM*, or LW*/MM2, depending on how much focus you want to give those maneuvers.
I hate size and movement mode restrictions, so despite the paper advantages of Trip builds I much prefer Greater Dirty Tricks and Bull Rushes for their creative tactics potential. Having the ability to Grapple and Disarm or Steal easily can give great imaginative combat tricks too.
Also, whenever planning to 2hand a lot, reach + combat reflexes is something to look at, or otherwise trying to hedge bets by going 2hand finesse with curve blade or dueling sword.
(EDIT: I'm very ninja'd. +1 to Rycaut.)
I'm playing a halforc Lore Warden with Str 18 and a Heavy Flail, Power Attack and Weapon Focus. He also has Heirloom Weapon for the +2 to Trip.
Still at level 1, he provokes AoO's making Trip or Disarm attempts but it is usually worthwhile. I will be taking Improved Trip at level 2, I figure it will be less useful at higher levels as we see more flying foes. Dirty Trick is my next Maneuver to focus on as almost all enemies dislike being Blinded, and my Rogue friend loves it. I really enjoy the option of lots of damage or Trip or Disarm or Dirty Trick.
I think he probably meant that when wielding a weapon with the trip weapon quality, attack roll enhancing feats or enhancements can be applied to the trip attempt. Like weapon focus and what-not.
This IS what I meant but it seems that as Gignare pointed out.. You can use any weapon now. We've been playing it differently as a house rule it seems :(
I guess when making suggestions to the forum at large, one should verify that all rules are by the book :(
I'm playing a fighter who uses a heavy flail and all the trip feats. Add in Improved Critical, Combat Reflexes and then Tripping Strike and you get a lot of trips and free attacks.
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So I'm hearing trip, disarm, grapple, and dirty trick as the most common ones. I was afraid that the power attack maneuvers weren't very good, and that I'd have to get improved unarmed/combat expertise.
Do note, job #1 for this character is to do damage. A 1 level dip in monk may not be bad, but getting high dex and int will probably hurt the str and con too much. Basically, build a 2-handed fighter, then replace the less important feats with maneuver ones.
How are overrun and sunder? I know sunder has the issue of destroying the loot, but they both look pretty good, and only require power attack. Is there a way to make bull rush particularly good? Also it seems that being medium size won't cut it. Other than permanent enlarge person, any ideas?