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How much interest would there be, both among the designers publishing it and the customers buying it, in making a 300 page hardback book on the Campaign World's chief metropolis and mega-dungeon, .
Certainly Paizo will keep the flagship line the Adventure Paths, of course, but the city of Absalom and its adjoining mega-dungeon, The Spire of Nex seem to deserve something special -- something more than just 6 volumes in an Adventure Path, yes? And it would make a great one-time "special product." Plus, aren't we ready for another 300 page hardback for the Campaign Setting? And aren't we satisfied with the hardbacks that have come out focusing on gaming and rules recently?
Yes the designers are busy developing the usual product lines but they usually schedule a couple hardbacks each year anyway, why not this one?
I think this would be a great GenCon or Christmas 2013 hardback.
GenCon 2013 hardback = Mythic Adventures
Six volumes of an AP is actually 576 pages, so that's more than a 300 page book would do :)
Minus side stories pages and all that, APs have way less than 300 page of informations.
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GenCon 2013 hardback = Mythic Adventures
Six volumes of an AP is actually 576 pages, so that's more than a 300 page book would do :)
Minus side stories pages and all that, APs have way less than 300 page of informations.
A Spire of Nex AP would have far more information than a 300 page Absalom-SoN hc would (especially that there is a book on Absalom out already).
A Spire of Nex AP would have far more information than a 300 page Absalom-SoN hc would (especially that there is a book on Absalom out already).GenCon 2013 hardback = Mythic Adventures
Six volumes of an AP is actually 576 pages, so that's more than a 300 page book would do :)
Minus side stories pages and all that, APs have way less than 300 page of informations.
Let see:
repeted Credit, license etc 6 x 5 = 30
side "novel" stories 6 x 6 = 36
NPC story + stat block 4 to 8 x 6 = 24 to 48
... this is already 90 to 114 page out of 576 that get removed, and that isn't counting mooks and side characters description, stories and stat blocks, and a CS book bestiary wouldn't be 36 to 60 page long.
So 300 has become more than 462?
So 300 has become more than 462?
as I said I didn't include/calculate the page equivalent for all info that are unimportant to the campaign... doing so would probably put the useful info under 300 pages.
On the other side APs and CSs don't entirely have the same purpose.
So 300 has become more than 462?as I said I didn't include/calculate the page equivalent for all info that are unimportant to the campaign... doing so would probably put the useful info under 300 pages.
On the other side APs and CSs don't entirely have the same purpose.
You mentioned "mooks and side character description, stores and stat blocks" none of which are unimportant to the campaign.
Maybe I should have said "unimportant to the Campaign Setting Book".
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The hardcover book line with one exception (Inner Sea World Guide) is meant for use with any campaign setting. I don't think this is going to change any time soon. Also of note with Adventure Paths is that typically a LOT of the supplemental material around the time in which the APs are being published is directed at the AP in general (Varisia: Birthplace of Legends for Shattered Star; Guide to Korvosa for Curse of the Crimson Throne) which are 32-64 page supplements for an AP that add to the Campaign Setting material provided by the AP itself.
GenCon 2013 hardback = Mythic Adventures
Six volumes of an AP is actually 576 pages, so that's more than a 300 page book would do :)
I think he meant the "unusual" product (BB, ISWG, RotRL Anniversary, etcetera).
I'd keep absalom and spire of nex separate, personally. They're obviously tied together thematically, but I suspect (as rpg products) they have substantially different markets.
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I don't think the total page count of an AP vs a hardback is tantamount to the dialog. A single hardback is more "special" than 6 softback volumes -- and because they'll be priced differently ($120 vs $40ish) -- the Hardback will be even more special.
What I'm thinking of is a product exactly like Paizo's AWESOME Expedition to Castle Greyhawk (and the other 3 Expedition to... books) near the end of the 3.5 era. I posit that that single hardback is "more special" for one campaign than 12 individual magazines that contain STAP. (And that one Pathfinder Campaign Setting hardback would be "more special" than 6 volumes of an AP. ...And that Absalom and, more especially, The Spire of Nex would be the aspect of the Pathfinder world to showcase it.
@ Corie Marie,
One of the parts of my OP that's a bit poorly written is that this would specifically be a Campaign Setting hardback because it seems about time for another one -- it's been a while since Inner Sea Guide and the 3.5 Campaign Setting -- and that the Hardbacks recently have all been rules/ monsters/ PC options and so something else along those lines may start to be too much (way too early for Bestiary 4, yes!?). And I guess if the GenCon2013 book will be Mythic Adventures Paizo has seen that, too.
@ Jacobs,
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was expecting. It just seems that if Paizo holds to this "rule" then Nex, Geb, The Spire of Nex and any other "absolutely Mona" aspects of the Campaign Setting will never get done. And really, is that fair to the integrity of the Campaign Setting?... Especially if The Spire of Nex IS like "the" Castle Greyhawk or "the" Undermountain to the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, doesn't it deserve to be developed and presented as something special? (Even if that means Mona has to write out some general guidelines and hand them off to other designers to flesh out for publication?)
@ DigitalElf & Steve,
I could certainly see a hardback as being 90% one OR 90% the other -- and I could absolutely see it as an AP, I've posted a number of times that I strongly feel it should be an AP and Sooner rather than later because of how important these locations are to the Campaign Setting (How can you publish FR w/out Waterdeep & Undermountain or GH w/out, um, Greyhawk?).
But ultimately, that's why I now think these sites should be published in a "more special" product than just an AP -- and why they should probably both be included (maybe 70% dungeon and 30% metropolis -- or some other delineation). Cuz you certainly can't do two books, one for each.
.... Anyway, as always, thanks for the responses guys; I've gotten the answer I kinda knew would come becauze The Spire of Nex is so much Mona's baby and I've at least thrown out the idea.
Especially if The Spire of Nex IS like "the" Castle Greyhawk or "the" Undermountain to the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, doesn't it deserve to be developed and presented as something special?
Just so long as Paizo doesn't go the TSR route, make everyone wait like 15 years, and then write it up as a joke module. I shudder at idea of the 2e 'Castle Greyhawk' treatment for the Spire of Nex. :)
Creative Director
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Yeah, that's pretty much what I was expecting. It just seems that if Paizo holds to this "rule" then Nex, Geb, The Spire of Nex and any other "absolutely Mona" aspects of the Campaign Setting will never get done. And really, is that fair to the integrity of the Campaign Setting?... Especially if The Spire of Nex IS like "the" Castle Greyhawk or "the" Undermountain to the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, doesn't it deserve to be developed and presented as something special? (Even if that means Mona has to write out some general guidelines and hand them off to other designers to flesh out for publication?)
There are other parts of the world under similar restrictions. James Sutter's in charge of Hermea, for example, and Jason's in charge of Razmiran. I'm more or less the one in charge of Mediogalti and Kyonin and Varisia. Wes is in charge of Ustalav.
As you've seen over the past 5 years, some of those regions HAVE been detailed, while others have not yet. Erik's Nex is merely in the "hasn't been detailed" category. Whether or not that's "fair" to the setting is somewhat irrelevant, since the setting is a huge one and there's plenty of places for adventures that aren't Nex. And since the campaign setting is built so that each region is relatively modular... if one region isn't detailed, the rest of the regions don't really suffer.
I'm not so sure the Spire of Nex is "THE" Castle Greyhawk or Undermountain. There are a lot of dungeons in the world that could take that claim, some of which (like Viperwall or the Crimson Citadel or Bastardhall) we've not done much yet, but others (like Gallowspire or Kaer Maga or ) we have.
I get it that folks are eager to find out more about all sorts of parts of the Inner Sea, particularly super-intriguing ones like Nex. But you're going to have to be patient there.
It's interesting that you brought up "Castle Greyhawk." D&D never DID get Gygax's actual Castle Greyhawk, but folks really really kept clamoring for it. So what happened? TSR went ahead and gave us Greyhawk, but in a way that felt almost like an insult—WG7 is a lot of D&D gamers' least favorite module, and it's certainly one of my least favorite. That's precisely what I don't want to do with things like the Crimson Citadel, Viperwall, Bastardhall, or Nex. I want to let the creators of those areas have a chance to detail them without having the sites be tainted or ruined or simply used up before they have a chance to get to them.
You ask if it's fair for the setting for us to wait so long to publish info about them. I turn that back to you and ask is it fair for customers to push publishers to publish things before the publisher is ready? :-P
While I can see the appeal of a Absalom HC, I personally think other campaign setting elements needed fleshed out a lot more than one city. In particular, I really think we need a Great Beyond, Dieties, or Distant Worlds book. And beyond that a Tian Xia hardcover. All four of those books I would rank as more important for Pathfinder than an Absalom hardcover.
I'm fine with Paizo eventually getting around to publishing anything on any of their "mega-sites". I'll take any and all of them.
That being said, I don't actually see the Spire of Nex as Golarion's Castle Greyhawk or Undermountain. For me, there are currently more iconic locations. Maybe if the Spire is detailed some day that will change for me. But for now, I actually see Gallowspire as this setting's Castle Greyhawk and I see Kaer Maga as this setting's Undermountain.
So if any iconic locations get the hardback treatment first, personally, I think it should be those two.
I'd also like to see more detail on Viperwall, not a whole hardback or even a full 64-page supplement. Just an article at some point soon would be nice.
The next geographically oriented 300+ page book should cover territory outside the Inner Sea region. Presumaby Tian Xia would be the next such book, whenever it comes. I'd like to see southern Garund and at least eastern Arcadia covered in publication within my lifetime.
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I'm not so sure the Spire of Nex is "THE" Castle Greyhawk or Undermountain.
Ah, the entire basis of my opinion is based on that premise; if my premise is faulty my whole argument crumbles.
No biggie.I can Homebrew its importance, of course, and won't have any problems with Paizo (Mona) presenting it to us when he's finally able (one day).
It's interesting that you brought up "Castle Greyhawk." D&D never DID get Gygax's actual Castle Greyhawk.
Wow.
Excellent point.I guess that when I grab my Castle Greyhawk resources I forget the fact that not only did they come years and in some cases decades after, say, G-D-G & S1, but that Gygax never actually did it.
Still, times are different now (Paizo ain't exactly TSR) and even back in the day there was some stuff from TSR about/ in Castle Greyhawk, right?
In any case, you're right; I'm wrong. Good point.
You ask if it's fair for the setting for us to wait so long to publish info about them. I turn that back to you and ask is it fair for customers to push publishers to publish things before the publisher is ready? :-P
:-P
Of course it is!We're the customers!
(Well, actually, I'm just one customer, but...)
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Again, my argument for Absalom and The Spire of Nex is based not on "my" favorite Campaign Setting aspect and the part that I want to see more of, but of the premise that these sites, The Spire of Nex as the Setting's ultimate mega-dungeon in particular, and the central metropolis as Absalom, needs to be further designed and given special treatment.
Again, my argument for Absalom and The Spire of Nex is based not on "my" favorite Campaign Setting aspect and the part that I want to see more of, but of the premise that these sites, The Spire of Nex as the Setting's ultimate mega-dungeon in particular, and the central metropolis as Absalom, needs to be further designed and given special treatment.
LOL.
Not to sound like I'm an ass, but reading you, it sounds more like "I am ordering you" than "I am asking you".
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Creative Director
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Again, my argument for Absalom and The Spire of Nex is based not on "my" favorite Campaign Setting aspect and the part that I want to see more of, but of the premise that these sites, The Spire of Nex as the Setting's ultimate mega-dungeon in particular, and the central metropolis as Absalom, needs to be further designed and given special treatment.
Erik Mona, then, is the person you need to talk to about doing the Spire of Nex.
I've been pestering him for it for 5 years though, so if you get him to cave in and write it up, let me know what you did because that's magic.
Again, my argument for Absalom and The Spire of Nex is based not on "my" favorite Campaign Setting aspect and the part that I want to see more of, but of the premise that these sites, The Spire of Nex as the Setting's ultimate mega-dungeon in particular, and the central metropolis as Absalom, needs to be further designed and given special treatment.Erik Mona, then, is the person you need to talk to about doing the Spire of Nex.
I've been pestering him for it for 5 years though, so if you get him to cave in and write it up, let me know what you did because that's magic.
It might involve Lion's Tap and if it does let me know we can arrange something.;)