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Ok, I've read the book, the FAQ, and a few other threads but I'm still a little confused on how to add up bonuses when tripping with a whip. For example, here are the stats for my halfling bard:
Melee: +4 (Weapon Finesse)
CMB: -1 (size Small)
First of all, when making a trip attempt with my whip, do I make an attack roll AND a CM roll or do I have to choose between dealing damage and tripping?
If I am attempting to trip, do I use my attack modifier and my CMB (total +3) or just one or the other?
I already discovered in another thread that weapon enhancements (e.g. +1 enhancements, Weapon Focus, other feats) get added to the trip attempt, but correct me if I'm wrong on that as well. Thanks.
You're either attacking (to do damage) or attempting a maneuver (to trip or do whatever the maneuver you're attempting does). So you have to choose.
If you're tripping you use your CMB with appropriate modifiers (if you have improved trip add +2, etc.)
First of all, when making a trip attempt with my whip, do I make an attack roll AND a CM roll or do I have to choose between dealing damage and tripping?
A combat maneuver is an attack roll. Anything that applies to attack rolls (like a Bless spell) will apply to normal attacks as well as combat maneuvers.
That said, if you choose to make a Trip combat maneuver, the result (if you succeed) is that the foe is tripped. You don't do damage unless you have special abilities that say so.
If I am attempting to trip, do I use my attack modifier and my CMB (total +3) or just one or the other?
You use your CMB, and anything that applies to that CMB.
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
In your case, you'll use weapon finesse to replace your strength modifier with your dexterity modifier.
So that leaves you with CMB=BAB+DexMod+SSM.
You also add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. Bless spell, flanking, higher ground, an enhancement bonus to the weapon you're using, etc.
For example, a level 2 halfling bard with 16 Dex, weapon finesse and inspire courage active could make a trip attempt with a masterwork whip at +5 (BAB+1, Dex+3, Size-1, Enhancement+1, Competence+1).
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Slim, not exactly.
Since you have Weapon Finesse, you can apply your dexterity to your CMB instead of your strength for trip attempts. This means your chance to trip with the whip should be two lower than your normal chance to hit with the whip. You subtract your normal bonus to hit for being small, and then subtract the addition 1 for being small and attempting a combat manoeuvre.
Sorry, Mergy, I didn't go into calculation of the CMB, since I didn't think that was the OP's question. I didn't double check his math. I was trying to say that you don't make two rolls (the attack roll AND a Maneuver Check {wich is, as pointed out, an attack roll itself}).
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You don't get to have two different size bonuses. Just ponder that for a second and see if it makes sense: due to your size, you are simultaneously both more and less likely to succeed at the trip attempt?
No, you get your normal size modifier on normal attacks and your special size modifier on maneuvers.
the natural +1 to hit should be added to the the cmb of weapon based maneuvers...i think. why not?Small characters have a natural +1 to hit with attacks for being small, but a natural -1 to their CMB.
Therefore, if your small character is performing a weapon-based combat manouevre, it is at their attack value -2.
FAQed!
Not in the case of the size modifier. The normal size modifier is replaced by the special size modifier.
Source please? I know about the special size modifier, but is it explicitly stated in the rules that the normal size modifier to hit no longer applies when performing a combat maneuver? If anything, the rules state that two bonus of the same kind do not stack, so the +1 size modifier to hit wouldn't stack with the -1 special size modifier to CMB if and only if a size modifier bonus/malus and a special size modifier bonus/malus are the same thing (are they?). And if they are, how do you calculate the CMB with two opposite size modifiers that "do not stack"?
I'm not saying that you are wrong Jiggy, most of the time I agree with your interpretations of the rules, but I'm just wondering if the special size modifier to CMB was only put there to negate the normal size modifier to hit or if it was meant to really hurt the CMB of small sized creatures.
EDIT: According to the stats block of some monsters in the bestiary, Jiggy is right. I'm now searching for a non-medium sized monster equiped with a "trip" weapon to be sure.
Another EDIT : According to the Balor's stats block, being equiped with a trip weapon do not change your CMB, but the Balor has also "Weapon Focus (longsword)", which is not calculated in his "general" CMB (because it would only applies to disarm and sunder).
It wouldn't. And people flagging things like this for FAQing is why it takes so long to get answers to legitimate questions.
Wow, you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning Jiggy? I don't think that a question that was flagged as an FAQ candidate only once will take much of the precious developers' time.
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Just one won't. But then there's another. And another. There are sooooo many posts that get flagged for FAQing that don't need it. The devs have to wade through all of them, and that takes time.
"A single raindrop never believes it is to blame for the flood."
you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning ...
I got up on BOTH wrong sides of the bed this morning
Just one won't. But then there's another. And another. There are sooooo many posts that get flagged for FAQing that don't need it. The devs have to wade through all of them, and that takes time.
"A single raindrop never believes it is to blame for the flood."
And if there's so many others who believe that this rule should be clarified, it becomes a rightful FAQ candidate, don't you think? Frequently Asked Question means "frequently asked question", not "pertinent questions according to Jiggy". Just because you believe that this question is not pertinent doesn't make that true for everyone else. And, beside, I can live a few more months without knowing if Flurry of Blows works as Two-Weapon Fighting or not: it's not wading through all the FAQ that takes time for the devs, it's the fact that the devs do not even know how their own system, inerited from the 3.X D&D era, works or should work.
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@James - Which interpretation are you saying could be a relic from 3.5? Not having come from 3.5 myself, I found your post slightly hard to follow.
@Maerimydra - I didn't mean lots of people FAQing the same topic, I meant there are lots of different topics that each only get one or two FAQ clicks. So the devs then have a queue of probably hundreds of threads flagged for FAQ treatment, with 95% of them having 1-4 clicks and not needing treatment at all, but they still have to look at them.
@James - Which interpretation are you saying could be a relic from 3.5? Not having come from 3.5 myself, I found your post slightly hard to follow.
@Maerimydra - I didn't mean lots of people FAQing the same topic, I meant there are lots of different topics that each only get one or two FAQ clicks. So the devs then have a queue of probably hundreds of threads flagged for FAQ treatment, with 95% of them having 1-4 clicks and not needing treatment at all, but they still have to look at them.
Hum, interesting, I always thought that a certain threshold had to be met before a FAQ candidate could be sent to the devs by the automatic system.
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Hum, interesting, I always thought that a certain threshold had to be met before a FAQ candidate could be sent to the devs by the automatic system.@James - Which interpretation are you saying could be a relic from 3.5? Not having come from 3.5 myself, I found your post slightly hard to follow.
@Maerimydra - I didn't mean lots of people FAQing the same topic, I meant there are lots of different topics that each only get one or two FAQ clicks. So the devs then have a queue of probably hundreds of threads flagged for FAQ treatment, with 95% of them having 1-4 clicks and not needing treatment at all, but they still have to look at them.
Really? I hadn't heard that - that would certainly change my approach to the situation!
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Note that the +1 do not apply to bull rush, overrun, drag and reposition CM.
I'm not saying that you are wrong Jiggy, most of the time I agree with your interpretations of the rules, but I'm just wondering if the special size modifier to CMB was only put there to negate the normal size modifier to hit or if it was meant to really hurt the CMB of small sized creatures.
Where are you getting that idea? If the +1 size bonus applied to any maneuvers, it would apply to all of them.
Really? I hadn't heard that - that would certainly change my approach to the situation!Hum, interesting, I always thought that a certain threshold had to be met before a FAQ candidate could be sent to the devs by the automatic system.@James - Which interpretation are you saying could be a relic from 3.5? Not having come from 3.5 myself, I found your post slightly hard to follow.
@Maerimydra - I didn't mean lots of people FAQing the same topic, I meant there are lots of different topics that each only get one or two FAQ clicks. So the devs then have a queue of probably hundreds of threads flagged for FAQ treatment, with 95% of them having 1-4 clicks and not needing treatment at all, but they still have to look at them.
Me neither, but this is how I would program it if I was not computer-retarded. ;)
So. . . as to my original question. . .
Attack: +4 (0 BAB, +3 Dex, +1 Size) [Weapon Finesse]
CMB: +2 (0 BAB, +3 Dex, -1 Size)
So, to make a trip attack with my whip, am I adding just my CMB to my attack roll? Did we ever come to a consensus about the size modifiers?
I think that the numbers above are correct, and if you ever take Weapon Focus (Whip), you will also get a +1 to your CMB for tripping with your whip.
Attack: roll 1d20 and add +4.
Trip attempt: roll 1d20 and add +2.
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Thanks. That's kinda what I suspected originally. I'll definitely be picking up Weapon Focus (whip) at third level and a masterwork whip as soon i have the money. Should be a fun character. Of course, being a halfling is a disadvantage with -1 to my CMB but sometimes you have to play the character you want and not the numbers on the page.
Thanks. That's kinda what I suspected originally. I'll definitely be picking up Weapon Focus (whip) at third level and a masterwork whip as soon i have the money. Should be a fun character. Of course, being a halfling is a disadvantage with -1 to my CMB but sometimes you have to play the character you want and not the numbers on the page.
What class are you playing by the way? I know that a whip wielding Magus could make a good trip-specialist (add your Arcane Accuracy bonus to your CMB).
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Thanks. That's kinda what I suspected originally. I'll definitely be picking up Weapon Focus (whip) at third level and a masterwork whip as soon i have the money. Should be a fun character. Of course, being a halfling is a disadvantage with -1 to my CMB but sometimes you have to play the character you want and not the numbers on the page.What class are you playing by the way? I know that a whip wielding Magus could make a good trip-specialist (add your Arcane Accuracy bonus to your CMB).
Bard, archaeologist archetype. Probably won't be the strongest trip specialist, but again, sometimes people forget that this is a role-playing game and just doing what will give you the max stats can go against the character you want to play. This one is sort of the Indiana Jones of the halflings, a stodgy historian who enjoys poetry turned whip-wielding adventurer on the search for hidden treasures (for the museum, of course!).