Effect definition


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Within the rules of Pathfinder:

1) What is an effect?

2) What counts as an effect?

3) Is a feat an effect?

4) Is a class, or prestige class an effect?

5) Are traits effects?

6) Are prerequisites effects?


This is particularly in relation to the language regarding races that says something like:

Quote:
counts as an X for any effect related to race

Grand Lodge

Anything, period.

I want this cleared up.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

An effect is something that follows a cause.

Such as I cast baleful polymorph on you (the cause). You turning into a newt would be the resulting effect.

My hitting you with a poisoned dart would be another cause, with you taking ability damage being the effect.

An effect can be from a spell, feat, class ability, racial ability, or just about anything else. What matters is that it is the effect that follows a cause of some kind (which, in the context of the game, is almost always something that was activated by another character or creature).

What are you having trouble understanding exactly? It's pretty readily understood I should think.

EDIT: Your wanting clarification makes me think there is a specific point of interest? If you give us more details one whatever conundrum or debate started this, maybe we can help you further.

Grand Lodge

The Orc Blood and Elf Blood racial trait do interest me.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

A feat HAS an effect, but IS NOT an effect itself.

Grand Lodge

Is this clarified, possibly by a FAQ, or Developer comment?


Yeah. We really don't need another debate. We came to the conclusion in the other thread that it wasn't clear, at least in the context of "effects relating to race".

We need a ruling.

Grand Lodge

I will have this term defined.


An effect is normally the result of an ability such as a feat or spell.

I can't think of a good "catch all" definition, but I can normally give an answer on a case by base basis.

Grand Lodge

Okay, let's go with the Orc Blood and Elf Blood example.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I can't help but think trying to define it will only do more harm then good.

I can tell you that the intent of Orc/Elf blood is that half-orcs and half-elves have both the human subtype as well as their parent subtype for all purposes. This generally means they are effected by spells, magical items, and abilities the effect said subtypes.

I'm failing to see what's so confusing about it.

Grand Lodge

For sake of the discussion, suppose I am trying to convince the someone who is not easily convinced.

Now, by real world definition, an effect is something that is produced by an agency or cause.

How does this term function within the Pathfinder rules?

Is it different in some way, and if so, how?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't see any reason for the term to function any differently than it does in the English language.

Grand Lodge

Would you consider feats, traits, or classes a cause, or an effect?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Would you consider feats, traits, or classes a cause, or an effect?

There's too much variation amongst those things for me to give you a "one answer fits all" blanket statement. This isn't 4E you know.

You'll have to cite specific examples.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Would you consider feats, traits, or classes a cause, or an effect?

I would say the feats, traits, or classes themselves are causes, but anything they do is an effect. For example, having the Dodge feat would be the cause, but the +1 dodge bonus to AC is the effect. Having the reactionary trait is a cause, but the +2 initiative is the effect.

With the Orc-blooded and Elf-blooded traits, any time anything in the game reacts in any way to the elf or orc subtype, then it is applied as appropriate. Causes will not ever interact directly with the traits, but their effects might, which would cause a new, different effect because of that trait.


They should all be considered effects.

If you limit it to only "stuff that happens to you," having racial bloodlines is effectively a nerf, as there's always going to be more "effects" done unto a specific race that are bad than there are boons. Also, the FAQ on racial heritage feat...

I don't see why half-elves and half-orcs shouldn't have access to all the human and elf/orc stuff. Being mixed race is supposed to be a benefit to playing them rather than a "pure blood" race.


Also, since it wasn't listed in the OP...

7) Are favored class options an effect?

8) Are racial archetypes an effect?

Please FAQ.


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There are too many variances to do a blanket statement like 'feats are effects' for them 'to be defined' and I'm quite sure your know it.

At worst I see this as another way to go about getting something out of the mechanics that was ruled out to not work (I know you were big on threads dealing with race issues) that you think should. Pushing for a ruling in one way to then go back and use that ruling to show contradiction in another ruling.

At best you're asking for a strict definition of something that in reality 'depends' on the context and so cannot be totally defined as you would like it to be. Either way I would prep myself for disappointment if I were in your shoes and were making this some kind of personal crusade :)

Grand Lodge

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Also, since it wasn't listed in the OP...

7) Are favored class options an effect?

8) Are racial archetypes an effect?

Please FAQ.

7) In the APG FAQ, it is noted that favored class bonuses are not effects.

8) Same question as #4.


Waves a necromantic hand

Not to dig up a post from 8 years ago, but this seems marginally more appropriate than starting a new one.

That pesky word "effect" has come up again, in the Chronomancer archetype for Wizards. Specifically, I'm looking at their Rewind ability and it's interaction with counterspells.

Rewind: wrote:
As an immediate action after losing a spell due to a failed concentration check or after casting a spell that had no effect (such as due to successful saving throws, a failed caster level check to overcome spell resistance, or other immunities), the chronomancer can expend a number of points from his temporal pool equal to half the spell’s level (minimum 1) to immediately prepare the spell again, as if it had not been cast. Any material components expended in the original casting remain expended, as are actions used to cast the original spell.

Would a different creature expending an action and spell (or similar things such as a Ring of Counterspells) be considered an effect?


Ifusaso wrote:

Waves a necromantic hand

Not to dig up a post from 8 years ago, but this seems marginally more appropriate than starting a new one.

That pesky word "effect" has come up again, in the Chronomancer archetype for Wizards. Specifically, I'm looking at their Rewind ability and it's interaction with counterspells.

Rewind: wrote:
As an immediate action after losing a spell due to a failed concentration check or after casting a spell that had no effect (such as due to successful saving throws, a failed caster level check to overcome spell resistance, or other immunities), the chronomancer can expend a number of points from his temporal pool equal to half the spell’s level (minimum 1) to immediately prepare the spell again, as if it had not been cast. Any material components expended in the original casting remain expended, as are actions used to cast the original spell.
Would a different creature expending an action and spell (or similar things such as a Ring of Counterspells) be considered an effect?

I think it's always preferable to start a new thread over necroing an old one. To start with, there's a good chance that anyone responding hasn't bothered to read the previous posts in the thread (I have not read anything but the original post and your post), making necroing it pointless. Also, it discourages people from even clicking on the post so you may not get as many informative responses.

All that being said, I'm not sure I understand your question. But I will try to answer it with some examples
-------------------------------------------------------
Example 1
Character A casts a spell. Character B counters the spell causing Character A's spell to have no effect. Character A then uses Rewind to regain the spell they cast.

This happens regardless what method Character B used to counter Character A's spell. So, it doesn't matter if what character B used is considered an "effect" or not.
-------------------------------------------------------
Example 2
Character C casts a spell. Character B attempts to counter the spell. Character A can not use Rewind to allow Character B or Character C to regain any spells they expended in this exchange regardless if their spells did anything or not.
-------------------------------------------------------
Example 3
Character A casts a spell. Then on their own turn Character B uses dispel magic to get rid of the spell. Character A can not use Rewind to gain back the spell because it did have an effect even if that effect was cut short.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think we are looking at completely unrelated uses of the word "effect" here anyway.

Liberty's Edge

LordKailas wrote:
Ifusaso wrote:

Waves a necromantic hand

Not to dig up a post from 8 years ago, but this seems marginally more appropriate than starting a new one.

That pesky word "effect" has come up again, in the Chronomancer archetype for Wizards. Specifically, I'm looking at their Rewind ability and it's interaction with counterspells.

Rewind: wrote:
As an immediate action after losing a spell due to a failed concentration check or after casting a spell that had no effect (such as due to successful saving throws, a failed caster level check to overcome spell resistance, or other immunities), the chronomancer can expend a number of points from his temporal pool equal to half the spell’s level (minimum 1) to immediately prepare the spell again, as if it had not been cast. Any material components expended in the original casting remain expended, as are actions used to cast the original spell.
Would a different creature expending an action and spell (or similar things such as a Ring of Counterspells) be considered an effect?
David knott 242 wrote:


I think we are looking at completely unrelated uses of the word "effect" here anyway.

I think it's always preferable to start a new thread over necroing an old one. To start with, there's a good chance that anyone responding hasn't bothered to read the previous posts in the thread (I have not read anything but the original post and your post), making necroing it pointless. Also, it discourages people from even clicking on the post so you may not get as many informative responses.

I agree with both LordKailas and David knott 242.

In particular, speaking of David post, it seems that the phrase "after casting a spell that had no effect" in the chronomancer ability means "after casting a spell that do nothing" and that the term "effect" is not used in the game meaning of the term.


Thanks, I'll make a new post and try to clarify the question.

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