Clarification on Cleave Attack Bonus

[ShadowGoon]

In the official rules text, Cleave states the following:

Quote:

Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

I'm trying to clarify if when it states Base Attack Bonus, it means only the base attack bonus or is there an inherent inclusion of the rest of the Attack Bonus (+Str,+MW) for example.

In my search to clarify this rule, I found the following on the Pathfinder SRD Wiki:

Quote:

As a full-round action, make a single melee attack against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (at the same bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. Both of these attacks are made at your highest attack bonus. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat.

The official rules state only BAB, and classify it as a Standard Action, while the Wiki classifies it as a Full Round Action, and Full Attack Bonus.

I know that ultimately the GM has the last say, but I'd like to bring this up for discussion, the scenario right now is that the GM is suggesting that I get my full attack bonus minus my BAB (due to Power Attack) on the first hit, and just a single D20 with no attack bonus on the second attack roll if successful on the first.

The GM in my game also happens to be a stickler for rules and details, and I've managed to correct him on a few other details so far. For this rule however, we seem to be at an impasse and have been unable to come to an agreement that both of us are satisfied with.

My interpretation is such that my Barbarian with a Raged strength of 20(5) should have two attacks with Cleave if successful on the first, both at an attack of D20+6 (+5 for Str, +1 for MW weapon), the character is at Level 1.

Thank you in advance.

[Grimmy]

Something is fishy with that wiki entry. I'm pretty sure cleave is not a Full-Round Action.

[Drejk]

The reference to the full base attack bonus means that extra attack(s) from Cleave feat chain suffer no itterative attack penalties. You use the same total attack bonus for the weapon on extra attacks(s) as you had on first, except for the bonuses that specifically work for the first attack made (such as from Aid Another another action or guidance/true strike spells).

[Grimmy]

ShadowGoon wrote:

I know that ultimately the GM has the last say, but I'd like to bring this up for discussion, the scenario right now is that the GM is suggesting that I get my full attack bonus minus my BAB (due to Power Attack) on the first hit, and just a single D20 with no attack bonus on the second attack roll if successful on the first.

The GM in my game also happens to be a stickler for rules and details, and I've managed to correct him on a few other details so far.

This is 100% crazy jive talk.

[Drejk]

Grimmy wrote:

Something is fishy with that wiki entry. I'm pretty sure cleave is not a Full-Round Action.

Yeah, the entry is wrong. It falsely states that Cleave is full round action when officially it is standard action, and does not mention -2 penalty to AC suffered when cleaving.

[Grimmy]

Was that the 3.5 version or something? I don't remember it ever working like that.

OP you better stick to the official PRD and d20pfsrd

[Drejk]

Grimmy wrote:

Was that the 3.5 version or something? I don't remember it ever working like that.

OP you better stick to the official PRD and d20pfsrd

It seems to be someone's house-ruled site (or maybe some rules are taken from Alpha/Beta of PF instead of final version?). It requires Str 13+ for Exotic Weapon Proficiency for bastard sword/dwarven waraxe, Defensive Combat Training grants +4 to DC of some manuevers against the character instead of using character level in place of BAB when calculating CMD. There might be other differences too.

[ShadowGoon]

So the verdict on the math would be d20 + BAB(1) + PA Penalty(-1) + Str Mod (5) + MW Quality (1) = d20+6, and this is applied to the first as well as the second attack if first is successful?

[Rendrin]

I think they are specifically mentioning base attack bonus so you know that you're not using iterative attack penalties (-5 for the 2nd attack, -10 for the 3rd, and -15 for the fourth). If they say it uses the same bonus then it would conflict with other effects such as the spell Guidance (Core Rulebook pg 292), which states "The creature gets a +1 competence bonus on a single attack roll..." It can't both only apply to a single attack roll and be used for both attacks from Cleave so they worded cleave in such a way that there would be no confusion in such a case (hopefully). When it states under Cleave "If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack..." you should cross reference the rules on making an attack (Core Rulebook pg 178-179). "Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is the following: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier ." Cleave is an attack and this should apply.

You also need to pay attention to the wording of other effects, such as Inspire Courage , a Bardic Performance ability (Core Rulebook pg 37), "An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls." The second attack of Cleave is still called an attack and would therefore get this bonus as well.

I think the only reason they mention the base attack bonus is so that there is no confusion regarding the multiple attacks derived from a high base attack bonus. All attack bonuses are treated normally with that 2nd attack from Cleave.

[Grimmy]

Simple answer: Full Bass Attack Bonus just means Full Bass Attack Bonus. All relevant modifiers still apply.

I don't know how you would begin to explain that to your GM though, that is some unique house-ruling he has going there.

[blackbloodtroll]

Bass attack, with a fish slap, flip back?

[Grimmy]

lol I've been writing a dubstep tune all day it melted my brain

Bass Master Pro, ranger archetype from the forthcoming hardcover Ultimate Angler