Hi!
I am currently playing an Aasimar (Musetouched) rogue in the Kingmaker adventure path (currently level 3, soon to be 4)
Sadly the only rogue guide available is only using the core rulebook, so I read everything I could find here and there but I am still hesitating about what feats and talents I should choose.
I have 10 Str, 18 Dext, 13 Con (Level 4 point will go in Con), 8 Int, 12 Wis, 14 Cha
My current list would be as follow(I am only planning till level 16, since apparently Kingmaker ends around this):
Level 1 Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2 Talent: Finesse Rogue
Level 3 Feats: Dodge
Level 4 Talents: Weapon Training
Level 5 Feats: Dazzling Display
Level 6 Talents: Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
Level 7 Feats: Outflank (The fighter in the group will take it too and I flank with him all the time)
Level 8 Talents: Resiliency
Level 9 Feats: Improved TWF
Level 10 Advanced Talents: Crippling Strike
Level 11 Feats: Combat Reflexes
Level 12 Advanced Talents: Opportunist
Level 13 Feats: Iron Will
Level 14 Advanced Talents: Another Day
Level 15 Feats: Greater TWF
Level 16 Advanced Talents: ?
I am hesitating quite a bit as I am considering the following talents and feats:
Talents: Offensive Defense, Slow Reaction, Beffudling Strike, Bleeding Attack, Entanglement of Blades
Feats: Improved Initiative, Fortitude, Toughness, disorienting maneuver
I am also hesitating about the Dazzling Display chain, as a Musetouched Aasimar I can cast Glitterdust once a day and I usually start my combat with it.
Dazzling Display though can be done way more often and in a wider area.
What are you thoughts? Any other feats or talents I should consider, or in the contrary not consider, take later, earlier etc?
Thanks! :)
Is any D&D 3E material available?
For talents, offensive defense, slow reactions, and entanglement of blades are all pretty good. Beyond that, you should probably use your talents to snag bonus feats. Which is what you seem to be doing.
You can't take Shatter Defenses until level 8, it requires BAB +6. Dazzling Display chain is if you want to go the Sap Master route. Otherwise, you have a fighter to flank with, it seems. See if you can talk the fighter into dipping rogue for 2 levels. Then he can pick up the Distracting Attack talent to make any enemy he hits flatfooted to you. That's another option than using the dazzling display chain.
Benefit: A rogue with this talent can make sneak attacks with subtle flourishes that disorient and distract her enemy. When she hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, she can forgo the additional damage to cause the creature to become flat-footed against one target of her choosing until the beginning of her next turn. The rogue cannot designate herself as the creature gaining the benefit of this talent. Creatures with uncanny dodge are immune to distracting attack.
I would not take resiliency or another day. I also think crippling strike isn't terribly practical -- usually by the time you've done significant str damage, the foe is dead anyway.
Also, is it too late to change stats around? Any particular reason you wanted Aasimar? I would at the least re-order mental stats along the lines of Int > Wis > Cha (before racial bonuses).
Is any D&D 3E material available?
For talents, offensive defense, slow reactions, and entanglement of blades are all pretty good. Beyond that, you should probably use your talents to snag bonus feats. Which is what you seem to be doing.
You can't take Shatter Defenses until level 8, it requires BAB +6. Dazzling Display chain is if you want to go the Sap Master route. Otherwise, you have a fighter to flank with, it seems. See if you can talk the fighter into dipping rogue for 2 levels. Then he can pick up the Distracting Attack talent to make any enemy he hits flatfooted to you. That's another option than using the dazzling display chain.
** spoiler omitted **
I would not take resiliency or another day. I also think crippling strike isn't terribly practical -- usually by the time you've done significant str damage, the foe is dead anyway.
Also, is it too late to change stats around? Any particular reason you wanted Aasimar? I would at the least re-order mental stats along the lines of Int > Wis > Cha (before racial bonuses).
Everything Pathfinder is available, but nothing from 3E.
Damn you are right for Shatter Defenses, hmm...
I know my stats are not optimal, but the cha is mainly flavor choice, I simply couldn't resolve myself to be a cute Aasimar Rogue with a dump charism, it helps my glitterdust save DC a bit too, so not completely wasted.
I wanted to be Aasimar to play the "cute, innocent looking rogue", I actually have the Aasimar trait "Innocent". And my rogue basically looks like this:
Resiliency is very much suggested in the rogue guide, but that rogue guide is quite old, so you might be right.
I ll think about everything you said and see what I can come up with ^^ Thanks a lot :)
I would vouch for Offensive Defense. Makes a big difference when you are flanking with your team, pumping the enemies with sneaks. They might notice and decide you look the puniest and easiest to crush.
I would vouch for Offensive Defense. Makes a big difference when you are flanking with your team, pumping the enemies with sneaks. They might notice and decide you look the puniest and easiest to crush.
You are definitely right, and that's clearly the style of my DM, he has a tendancy to attack the fighter first, which is nice, but as soon as I get a bit too dangerous the enemy will turn its attention toward me.
I don't think the fighter will take any rogue level, he is going the tank route and that's really feat intensive, I ll ask him though ^^
I might do this then, but what talents would be good at level 14 and 16 then? Well 16 is so late and close to the end of the AP that it might not matter much anyway.
Also if I don't go the dazzling display feat, what feats would be nice? I found that having Initiative is not "that" good for me, I usually want to play after the fighter or at least the cleric (to get buffed), and If I go and attack enemies flat footed and they play before the other players, they gang me up bad :/ So I ll probably avoid improved init.
Level 1 Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2 Talent: Finesse Rogue
Level 3 Feats: Dodge
Level 4 Talents: Weapon Training
Level 5 Feats: Dazzling Display
Level 6 Talents: Slow Reactions
Level 7 Feats: Outflank (The fighter in the group will take it too and I flank with him all the time)
Level 8 Talents: Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
Level 9 Feats: Improved TWF
Level 10 Advanced Talents: Opportunist
Level 11 Feats: Combat Reflexes
Level 12 Advanced Talents: Offensive Defense
Level 13 Feats: Iron Will
Level 14 Advanced Talents: ?
Level 15 Feats: Greater TWF
Level 16 Advanced Talents: ?
It is weird because usually people struggle for feats, but it seems I can't find any "really cool" feats to take.
There aren't many good rogue advanced talents. Would your DM let you take ninja master tricks? I have no idea why, but RAW a ninja can take advanced talents but a rogue can't take master tricks.
If not...see if he'd let you take "Feat" multiple times. You could in 3E...
EDIT: Wow...only one ninja master trick doesn't use Ki! Ok, well Assassinate is still a really good choice, at least fills one of your empty slots.
There aren't many good rogue advanced talents. Would your DM let you take advanced ninja tricks? I have no idea why, but RAW a ninja can take advanced talents but a rogue can't take advanced tricks.
If not...see if he'd let you take "Feat" multiple times. You could in 3E...
Yep that's what I found too, Rogue advanced talents are most of the time disapointing :( I ll check with him about the Ninja Tricks but I am not holding my breath, he is pretty much a "by the rule" kind of DM.
Feat could be decent I guess, I could take fortitude, toughness or things like that.
It feels almost like if the rogue past level 12 doesn't have anything really awesome (well, more sneak attack dice is always cool of course). I wonder if I should simply multiclass or find a decent PrC at that point, but that would open a completely different discussion, so I ll focus on pure rogue for now.
Well, if he's by the rules, RAW a rogue can take Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) as a normal talent, let alone advanced, to get another feat on top of Combat Trick. Check the wording for rogue's ninja trick and ninja's rogue talent if you don't believe me. :)
Rogues are one of the weakest classes in PF, unfortunately. Them and monks...
Well, if he's by the rules, RAW a rogue can take Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) as a normal talent, let alone advanced, to get another feat on top of Combat Trick. Check the wording for rogue's ninja trick and ninja's rogue talent if you don't believe me. :)
Rogues are one of the weakest classes in PF, unfortunately. Them and monks...
Indeed, Rogue are not the sexiest class it seems, and I found out after I decided to play one, that Kingmaker also have very few traps, so there goes my group usefulness :D
This might be weird, but can you multiclass Ninja when you are a rogue?
That would give me a ki pool and the advantages that comes with it, a couple of ninja tricks, poison use and I would not lose any sneak attack dice.
I would lose 1 BAB though, hmm...
EDIT: NM just found out that you can't multiclass Rogue/Ninja, too bad :D
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Since you seem to be aiming for quite the high charisma anyway, is there any chance you'd be interested in the ninja instead? Ask your GM if he'll let you play it with the same rogue fluff, where your ki is instead a guile pool.
Kingmaker is a very trap-lite game, so I don't think you'd be losing a lot by dropping Trapfinding, and you'd be gaining those amazing ki abilities (and the ability to mirror image yourself would make surviving those gangups much easier).
I'm aware you've already started, but in such a long campaign I think a rebuild might be warranted.
Personally, Rogue and Ninja advanced tricks are something that I wish were cross-class. Your DM might agree to this.
Ninja Master Trick: Greater Invisibility is a pretty good one.
The normal Rogue talent that lets you move out without getting hit by AoOs is decent aswell (although with an acrobatics check perhaps you can get by without it, dm dependant).
Personally the Bloodline feats are really interesting to flesh out a character - for my human ninja I am taking Shadow Bloodline (Eldritch heritage they are called i think), giving Darkvision and swapping positions with allies, as well as Hide in Plain Sight.
Fast Stealth is generally suggested in these forums.
Good luck let us know what you stick with!
guile pool...
This, a hundred times this. You might loose trapfinding, but you also might gain an extra attack per round for 1 Ki, Mirror Image ninja Trick, etc.
While you found out you cant multiclass rogue/ninja you can still take archetypes.
I reccomend Bandit or Scout.
As Stream mentioned:
I have found this build to be very balanced and effective by delaying TWF feat chain by a few levels to offset the lower BAB with combat feats (Wpn Focus & finesse). Focuses on fighting with two daggers, both in melee and ranged depending on the situation. While my rogue build focuses on a higher STR score for melee/ranged damage, your build is more socially capable including I'm sure the occasional UMD for wands/scrolls.
01 Iron Will; Favoured Class: Rogue (+HP/lvl)
02 Rogue Talent (Finesse Rogue)
03 Weapon Focus: Dagger
04 Rogue Talent (Combat Trick: Two-Weapon Fighting)
05 Extra Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense
06 Rogue Talent (Resiliency)
07 Improved Iron Will
08 Rogue Talent (Sniper's Eye)
09 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10 Advanced Rogue Talent (Crippling Strike); Rogue Talent (Fast Getaway)
11 Improved Initiative
12 Advanced Rogue Talent (Opportunist)
13 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
14 Advanced Rogue Talent (Defensive Roll)
15 Combat Reflexes
16 Advanced Rogue Talent (Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting)
17 Great Fortitude
18 Advanced Rogue Talent (Improved Evasion)
19 Improved Great Fortitude
20 Advanced Rogue Talent (Entanglement of Blades)
Nice build indeed! I think I ll take a few ideas from it ^^
I have found this build to be very balanced and effective by delaying TWF feat chain by a few levels to offset the lower BAB with combat feats (Wpn Focus & finesse). Focuses on fighting with two daggers, both in melee and ranged depending on the situation. While my rogue build focuses on a higher STR score for melee/ranged damage, your build is more socially capable including I'm sure the occasional UMD for wands/scrolls.
*build stuff*
This seems like it'd be great with that auto-returning belt from UE (mentioned over in the "must-have items" thread on page two i think).