Goblin Squad Member
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@Mogloth Read the last two pages, you'll understand what happened to keep it on top.
In all fairness, "understand" is a bit of an over statement. When one part of the conversation involves trying to find the most twisted interpretation of a previous post solely for the sake of trolling, there's not much to understand.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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You want to make a name for yourself on Something Awful? Troll a forum. If you get the denizens riled up, that's a win.
You and the rest of the fanboys have taken every statement to date not wildly praising Ryan Dancey's greatness, however it pleased you, before you even bother to read them. So feel free to take my words and mangle them beyond all reason and propriety.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How can you even make statements like:
Guidelines... in black and white even.It's literally an oxymoron. This is a guy that thinks others haven't read the blog post, or that we are too stupid to understand.
I'm sorry, I'm fairly familiar with a "mine field" concept. I got it. I even gave you a real world comparison so YOU can get it too. He doesn't want people even thinking of going there. THAT IS THE GUIDELINE. People keep accusing him of being vague when he's not. I wouldn't list every single sexual, religious, ethnic, etc slur either.
My issue comes with the common sense factor. Like Ryan said, "worst case scenario" thinkers.
Translation: ... but some things we feel about strongly enough to not give you a second look, or a chance to explain your actions. We'll just delete your account.....
I have read it, several times because I was dumbfounded by the rigidity and vicious, uncompromising tone. To me it read like something typed after a flamewar that dragged down some well-beloved community. This is why I asked for clarification. The answer i received was along the lines of "well, if it suits us, we'll play favorites, because society works that way."
Guess what? If someone infiltrates our settlement and destroys it, then I blast him by calling him a racial slur for an arabian individual wearing a turban, I deserve to get banned. The same if I threaten to place a burning cross in someone's settlement. That's offensive and uncalled for when playing a game. That is the sort of thing he's talking about.
If you are a positive member of the community and aren't trolling folks, when you inevitably do step all over your own chorizo it will be what it is... an isolated incident. If isolated incidents begin to trend, they'll pick up on it and no matter what good contributions you've made, you'll get the ax.
It's not playing favorites because that is how society works, that is punishing people who have good records lighter than people with bad. That's why you don't get executed for just armed robbery. But if you do it enough times, you get 25 to life. While if you have a squeaky clean record and rampage through an elementary school executing children and faculty, you get multiple life sentences if not executed. Cause there is just some things society will not stand for.
How people got all sorts of left field ideas about this is beyond me. I don't think anyone is stupid... but obviously some people are lacking common sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This actually makes me think of a very real situation in which Ryan's "landmine logic" has worked and has been working for over 50 years. The Korean DMZ. There is only one place that you can walk right up to that line, that's the JSA, and daring to cross it is suicide. For the rest 160 miles, there is an area 2.2 miles wide that if you wander into, you are fair game for either side. There are plenty of landmines there, too.So this game will be as fun as taking a stroll though he Korean DMZ, the only place quantifiably worse than North Korea on the entire planet. With friends like you who needs enemies?
Seriously! Its not worth engaging with some people. Sometimes the best policy to ignore outlandish comments and to not give them the satisfaction of a responce.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Baalbamoth - I have... read a good bit about the Living Campaign fiasco among other things.
Here's what I do know.
Ryan Dancey + WotC = OGL / d20
Lisa Stevens + WW = VtM / WOD which in turn = Awesome from mechanics to lore.
OGL + Paizo = Pathfinder
Lisa Stevens + Ryan Dancey + Pathfinder + MMO = A 98% possibility for a home run.
Your preference to user options is noted I'm sure. Do you own stock in Paizo or GW for that matter? If not, then that is all you are entitled to. If they decide to change their plans based off of your recommendations I'm sure you'll be the first to know. Until then, deal.
@TerraNova - Healing a septic society is much more taxing than taking preventative measures at it's inception. I didn't see the "ban-hammer" being par, I saw it as the "enough is enough" or "oh hell no" option. When a mod found themselves saying either of those, then they'd wield it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Obaka
Commen sense has never been common."Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
-Albert Einstein
I'd say 25. I've a completely different common sense factor from my 18 year old self.
And he may have scored a knowledge check, but I just made my Stubborn saving throw to avoid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I stopped reading after seeing you named yourself after Baal,Are you serious or were your being facetious? If serious you are a bit of a prude. :P
I may not have been 100% truthful. I skimmed over the first part of his post:
When I read the blog post about language... I was annoyed, just one more freedom ripped away, why?
That sense of entitlement, combined with the name, in my judgment meant the post wasn't worth reading.
I'm not that much of a prude... I named my Dark Knight in Vanguard Dzao because Zeta, Omicron, Omega could be counted as 666 (I realized later I wasn't doing it the same way the actual Greeks did, but that's another story).
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Goblin Squad Member
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see but thats the ethical issue I mentioned... Paizo only exists because of the OGL, which only happened because of Dancey, now Dancey claims the OGL helped put WotC into a "death spiral" and HE then goes to Stevens and asks to start pathfinder online for Paizo?
edit- kind of reminds me of a mercenary switching sides in the middle of a battle...
Might be more accurate to claim there would be no pathfinder without the OGL, but that's neither here nor there. Lisa has been successful in other areas of the business, not just Paizo.
I don;t see an ethical issue here, unless you mean to say she got into business with Ryan for denegrating a competitor?|
Goblin Squad Member
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@baalbamoth:
You've obviously made an informed decision about this game, which is your right. If you have serious concerns about the game, then don't play it. There is no point in wasting our time with you trying to convince us that it's a mistake to trust in Ryan and GW to make a game that we'll love.
I for one will be playing this game, and am excited about what GW proposes to create.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm no industry insider, just a guy who went to his first D&D convention at 10 yrs old in 1980, I had no idea who Ryan Dancey was, but after insulting the guy figured I better do a five minute search...
didnt even know about a living campaign fiasco...
when I looked up his name I got the refrence where he was the big pusher behind the OGL and predicted how this was going to be great for WotC.
later, on his own blog he then blamed the OGL as one of the main causes of the downfall of WotC, and how soon D&D would be nothing more than a hasbro tabletop boardgame. (is it just me that sees him working for Paizo as a little unethical?)
then I found this blog...
http://shutupinternet.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/ryan-dancey-is-destroying-ga ming/I was shocked when I read the guy had been caught hacking into private emails of the GAMA board members to improve his chances for re-election,
(If he's going to mention his GAMA expirence, we deserve to know why he was forced to leave, all of this makes me seriously wonder if I want to give this guy my contact info and credit card numbers.)
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/5416.html
then read his negitive comments about CCP.
Then found this forum
http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12810
These people seemed to have a much better insight into the MMO gaming world than I do and one commenter said this...
"Only one of them (Mark Kalmes) has any useful experience with MMOs (or computer games in a more general sense).
Ryan Dancey on the other hand is an actual liability, as he was the marketing director for EVE when they went silly on "micro"-transactions (infamously the $70 monocle that was virtually impossible for another player to ever actually see). You can read about that here or here. And it seems to be this guy who is the driving force behind the Pathfinder game, the Paizo blog has Stevens saying that he approached her directly after he left* CCP.
So it's a case of whether Kalmes can offset Dancey to give us a...
Old news... Same song and dance whenever someone wants to bash Ryan. Your a little late to the party as this topic has been brought up many times here on the forums.
I'm sure it won't be the last...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@BlackUhuru - Hence me not bothering to reply. I swear Dancey must be a Demi-God with straight rogue / assassin / shadowdancer stats to pull that off. Might even want to throw in some psionics. I mean if you are going to make inference that he... around 2001, while an executive at a place that was probably paying better, hatched a plan to give people free reign of DND rules, just so Paizo could create an offshoot brand, then somehow sabotaged EvE so it would stagnate, and leave only to come aboard Pathfinder and create an MMO at a place where he is probably making less money than if he had stayed at WotC? All while he predicted the future right when OGL was hatched? Ethical or not, I want that guy on MY team.
I mean, prophesying about the future, yeah that kinda is unethical when you think about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Only thing I'll bother to dignify with a response in that post is to say that nobody's email was "hacked". GAMA used the old MailMan listserv software. As configured out of the box, that software generated a publicly accessible website with all list traffic on it, not protected by a password or any authentication. So all of GAMA's internal email list traffic was public.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Baalbamoth, I hate to be rude, and thank you for your opinion, but can you just PLEASE leave? We know you don't like what they are planning to do. (And it's really hard to take anything you say seriously when your profile mentions nude beaches.) And not everyone is you, and not every game coming out needs to be M-rated (I am really irritated by that. Nintendo is still my favorite with regards to games.)
Also, video conferencing killing tabletop RPGs? This is a horrible thesis, and if anything, video conferencing bolstered tabletop RPGs (heard so many tabletop gamers use Skype for things. And Google+ will no doubt only make it better.) D&D Next, I'm neutral on. No one here in my region (of Pathfinder Society and then some) even talks about D&D Next, so I'm not even sure Paizo should worry too much (this is just here, however. I don't have any clue on any other regions.)
I'm ok with how they are planning on doing language (or lack of letting you do thereof). Yes I can take insults, doesn't mean I'm ok with having to listen to them. I like the obscurity too, so people would err on the side of caution, and my gosh yes: Be nice... (Just once, I'd like a multiplayer game with others I don't have to listen to people spout F**k or S**t or "Imma ******* taht ****." Irritates me after so long, and a big reason I hate the League of Legends community so much. Great game, but horrible horrible community.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@kryzbyn- yeah like I said, I was a fanboi for AOC, Funcom promised everything I ever wanted in an MMO... I spent months building that clan, promoting the game, getting all my friends to pre-order...
I made the mistake of beliveing that dev with the highly successful background, then watching how all the promises were lies, that the game would still system crash once every 45 minutes even 3 months after launch, that only 30% of the promised features were included at launch, and now you couldent pay me to buy another funcom game. I learned that lesson. I think I even developed a slight phobia about people with norwegian last names...
I did as well. I played in the betas for AoC, and ordered the collector's edition. I played it for a few months. I enjoyed it the time I played it, but after a while decided to go back to EQ2.
I had the same experience with WAR. Played in betas, ordered the CE. Played longenough to get my squig herder to 38, went back to EQ2, but I enjoyed it while I played it. Same with Aion.I have not, since, given a game the same benefit of the doubt. I played in SWTOR betas for the year leading up tp launch. It was clear that they were not going to change things people had called for. I still pre-ordered, but not the CE. I played it for a little over a month, and was 50 for like a couple weeks, and quit and this time went back to WoW. It scratched the ToR itch I had, but was and is still not a good MMO.
PFO is different. I pledged cash before even seeing a working game, because I think what Ryan has in mind will work, and be fun. I like the idea of the community policing itself in most situations, and only requiring intervention from GMs in rare occasions. I like the sandbox skill based leveling idea. Pretty much everything, save the mass comabt stuff, that Ryan has blogged about, I've thought at one time or anohter "X game is great, but what it really needs is...".
Like I've said, I'm really impressed with Lisa's business saavy. She vouches for Ryan, and from what I've seen of Ryan so far in his goblinworks role supports that opinion. I especially like how he doesn't take crap from people and let it slide like he's "supposed to" for some reason. He gets the internet, he gets MMOs. I think this game will be great.
It won't be for everyone, but thank God! I won't miss the element of the internet community that won't be attracted to this game.
Anyhoo, since you decided to calm down a notch and converse, I thought I'd indulge. Thanks!
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I thought the whole RPG on an MMO was a bit weird.
Clearly PFO is not intended to appeal to you. That's not a flaw-it's a design choice. You can discuss that choice all you want, but I figure you have chance epsilon>0 of providing any input that results in reevaluating that choice or convincing me that it was the wrong choice from an artistic perspective. Whether it is right from a business perspective will be determined solely by the business reality.
It's not that I don't want to see abusive language- it's that I don't want to play with abusive people. Being placed on an auto-ignore list would prevent a player from playing the game as intended without stopping them from interfering with the game as intended.
Frankly, if you don't support the idea of a respectful community if players (which need not play respectful characters), then you need to demonstrate the benefits and details of some other option. What behavior do you believe is always completely unacceptable?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not saying minorities should leave, I'm trying to say that Goblinworks has already stated how they plan to do things. A lot of you sound like you just want to swear like sailors. I don't think Paizo wants to be behind a game where a big portion of the community swears and makes vulgar comments. They have mentioned they would like to get children and women playing, and this would definitely cause them to not play.
And while yes, there is always the ignore function, it really detracts from the game. I've had several occurrences where I muted someone, and then they pop up again and I miss a sale, lose out on important information, etc. In League of Legends, if you mute someone there, you DO NOT get to hear any actual tactical information between their bouts of immaturity, and LoL has a HUGE emphasis on teamwork.
As for languages, I couldn't care less. People put the silliest things there in their profile. However, considering you put Nudist Beach there, it makes you sound like someone that is perverted and would talk about this stuff.
I have played on so many MMOs. Around the early days of WoW, I was playing Runescape. There was not a lot of profanity back then. Today, it's all over in public areas of various MMOs, and if not swearing, it's them chatting about lewd things.
And no, it is not because we are yesmen and fanboys. It's because what they're doing hasn't really been done elsewhere. Again a reminder, Pathfinder Online isn't going to be your typical MMO. Still fine-tuning it and we still give feedback. What you've been trying to do is change something they've put in stone. Yes, the minority may want to do bad things. But the majority is fine with how they are doing this. If the posts say otherwise, it's only because people voice their complaints moreso than their gratitude.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems weird to me when I hear things like "I played in the beta test for months/years" and then paid extra for a deluxe version of the packaging of a game, and THEN decided I didn't like the game's direction.
Most Theme Park games are what they are once they're in public beta. You can see how they'll work and the only real questions left are scalability and balance. Maybe there are systems that are too ragged for deployment, or systems that are stubs waiting for future development, but by and large, the game you see is the game you get.
We hope to be a little different in that regard in that we'll have a lot more stubs than normal when we get to that point, because we want to build those stubs out in consultation with the community.
I think partly why the phenomenon post-beta disenchantment happens is that people hear a marketing phrase, and elaborate it in thier minds into something neither promised nor intended, and are then disappointed with the reality.
We're trying really really hard to show you what we're thinking, while at the same time telling you that we're not making promises, to try and avoid this phenomenon. The only promise I'll go on record with as regards design is that we're making a fantasy sand box set in the River Kingdoms of Golarion, the home of the Pathfinder role playing game.
Beyond that, we have goals and objectives and ideas and dreams, but not promises.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest, the reasons I got the CE for both AoC and WAR was for the concept artwork and soundtrack for the game, that's all. It wasn't to show support, or think I was getting a more uber version of the game itself. I wanted the novelties, and I still have them :)
EDIT: For me there wasn't any real disenchantment with AoC or WAR. The reality was, I had already been playing EQ2 for years, and had cap level toons. When the grind became monotonous, or when I was faced with the end of quest lines 40 levels before cap, I simply took a look at things, and decided that I already had cap level toons in another game I've spent years playing, that I can jump into end game content or new content with, instead of coninuing to grind in the new one.
The only disenchantment I had was in reagrds to SOE's less than acceptable development and customer service practices. Any game they publish will not get one red cent of mine anymore. I then moved to WoW, and still enjoy the hell out of that game. I'm hoping PFO is good enough to pull me away and keep me. I'm willing to give it a try.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought the whole RPG on an MMO was a bit weird.Clearly PFO is not intended to appeal to you. That's not a flaw-it's a design choice.
+1
I'm still waiting for the part where he tells us they don't have the right to choose the way they design the game and that it has to be vulgar and obscene. Either that or he'll threaten to sue because of a civil rights violation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems weird to me when I hear things like "I played in the beta test for months/years" and then paid extra for a deluxe version of the packaging of a game, and THEN decided I didn't like the game's direction.
Most Theme Park games are what they are once they're in public beta. You can see how they'll work and the only real questions left are scalability and balance. Maybe there are systems that are too ragged for deployment, or systems that are stubs waiting for future development, but by and large, the game you see is the game you get.
This happens alot, the problem is that themepark games are fun at first, you don't know when you are going to hit the drop-off point when everything sucks and you can't handle repeating more content, most of the time participating in the beta speeds this up. When I beta'ed SWTOR I had to limit my interaction to one class, because I knew too it would ruin my release experience. I left that game when they did the big PvP patch, and drove a larger gap between starting and developed characters, and numerous other decisions I didn't agree with, after the 'guild summit' I had no more faith that the game, left my 'see you when it's F2P in 6 months prediction, and guess what my prediction came true!
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I would like to add about the name section of this blog. If you are going to limit our in game names to the extent that we cannot use 'immersion breaking names" then you should allow us a "real ID", or an ID that our friends can easily recognize us as, even if we are playing a different character. Example, I have been using the gamer tag 'BLT" for several years now, and many of my friends, both in real life and within a game world, identify me as "BLT". Id like a system that makes it so I can keep this tag, unlike WOW's real ID which shows your email address or your real life name. Perhaps have the tag appear next to your name, but only for players in the same company. That way people within your own game community know you as your own chosen gamer name, but the rest of the world knows u simply as Kar'Iliel, Tiefling Magus master of twin disciplines.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I would like to add about the name section of this blog. If you are going to limit our in game names to the extent that we cannot use 'immersion breaking names" then you should allow us a "real ID", or an ID that our friends can easily recognize us as, even if we are playing a different character.
Only as an option, not mandatory. I see huge disadvantages to people recognizing your different characters easily, especially if you want to be either an assassin or bandit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would say it should be mandatory, but not public. You only see it if both players have entered an agreement, City of Heroes had the ability to have characters with individual friends lists, and a global friends list. The global list was account-to-account, which the other was character-character.
Yeah, I took that non-denial as admission to being a Goon as well. Unsurprising given the m.o.
You want to make a name for yourself on Something Awful? Troll a forum. If you get the denizens riled up, that's a win. If you get the mods riled up, that's sweet, sweet tears of rage you brag about. You get an owner riled up? It's as good as counting coup! Put that trophy on the wall and brag about it forever!
I'm not much fun for Goons.
@TerraNova - We'll be very open to a dialog with the community. We'll likely even have some sort of community body that forms in some sort of official advisory capacity. We're not running a dictatorship, we're running a dictocracy. That's where everyone has a fair chance to make their point and vote on a direction, then I decide what to do. If I thought I could create from whole cloth a functioning, healthy society all by myself by fiat I'd be delusional. It takes community effort and community involvement to make a society work.
I always think it's interesting when people focus on the worst case scenario. "What if I accidentally type "F&+& you"?!?!?!?! I'll get banned without appeal and lose everything!"
Come on guys. We're not idiots here. Nobody wants to ban anyone. Nobody at Goblinworks has the time or the inclination to go looking for one-off derp derp and go through the immense hassle of banning an account. It's the Nuclear Option. We use it when there's no other good course of action.
Let's focus on the best-case scenario:
People who actually do want to rile others up just for the lulz are kept to a minimum, and the community views that behavior as so aberrant that it self-policies to a large degree the kids trying to be cynical/tough/ironic/sarcastic/hip/cool who just don't know any better, and acts like the body's immune system when it's someone who is actually interested in pouring gasoline on the place and burning it down just to watch it burn - identifying them quickly, bringing attention to them swiftly, and...
This whole response makes me feel a lot better about the ambiguous rules policy.
Thanks Ryan.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not by any means, PFO is moving towards a great community, we only have 2 groups of 'haters' that try and stir up much of anything.
1. People who want to ruin other peoples enjoyment, and are finding that PFO will not be a home for them.
2. People who can't handle the thought open PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Burke
I don't see it as playing their game. I see it as not turning the other cheek. It is no great accomplishment to rile me up. To rile me up and prove your point at my expense, completely different story... that is, if your point is relevant. Most of the "trolls" talk in circles anyway. The contention is entertaining... at least to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I think partly why the phenomenon post-beta disenchantment happens is that people hear a marketing phrase, and elaborate it in thier minds into something neither promised nor intended, and are then disappointed with the reality...
Yeah, that and people hyping their game as the next new thing spewing some jargon and people that want to beleive them all too much.
Warhammer Online and, to some extend, SW:TOR did this.