How do Brawlers and Unarmed Fighters do damage?

[Animation]

All,

Do Brawlers and Unarmed fighters get by on a d3 for base damage? Is that really how they work? Or do they have some way to improve their base damage like monks do with Unarmed Strike? Or do their feats and class levels really let them hang in fights at all level ranges?

I mean, I guess when they use weapons other than unarmed strike, they are fighters using weapons, weapons that can be enchanted and weapons for which they can pick fighter feats. But I would think that when they use unarmed strikes (improved) then they are rocking a d3 that isn't a magic weapon and that doesnt scale up in damage like a monk does?

Thanks!

[Nicos]

I would just let this here

Spoiler:

20 PB

Dawrf

Init:+2
Darkvison (60 ft)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------
Str 22 (16 +2 lvl+4 iTem)
Dex 14 (13+1 lvl)
Con 16 (14+2 race)
Int 10
Wis 14 (12+2(race))
Cha 8 (10-2 (race))

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------
Hp: 118 (12d10+48)

AC: 20 (10+2(Dex) +7(armor) +1(dodge)

Saves
Fort +13
Ref +8
Will +10
( 4 against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities Another +3 bonus on saving throws against

effects that cause the exhausted, fatigued, or staggered conditions or temporary penalties to ability

scores And +2 agains sleep and paralysis Effects.)

CMD: 30 (34 against grapple, bull rush and Trip; 36 against Drag)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
Melee
Unarmed +28/+23/+18 (1d6+20 20/x2)**

or

Unarmed +24/+19/+14 (1d6+28 20/x2)**

** He always uses his Bodywrap for his normal attacks.

CMB: +18 (+24 with grapple, +20 with drag, ¿+26 Trip?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------

1. Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style
2. Power attack
3. Steel soul, Tough Guy
4. Improved grapple
5. Iron will, Weapon training
6. Greater Grapple
7. Weapon focus (unarmed), Clever Wrestler
8. Stunning Fist (3 day, 18 DC)
9. Dragon Ferocity, Trick Throw
10. Weapon specialization (unarmed)
11. Improved Drag, Takedown
12. G weapon focus (Unarmed)

Skills
Acrobatics +12
Perception +7
Climb +11
Swim +11

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------

+ 3 Brawling Mithral Chain Shirt (17 K), Glovs of dueling (15 K), Belt Of Str +4 (16K), Boot of striding and sprinting (5,5 K), +2 BODYWRAP OF MIGHTY STRIKES* (12 K), Robe, Monk's (12 K), Cloak ofprotection +2 (4K), Cloak of displacement (24k)

I doubt a typical monk could do more damage.

[Moglun]

That's correct, their unarmed strikes deal d3 base damage just like everyone else (except Monks). They're better off using weapons from the close weapon group or the monk group.

[Jarl]

5 minute lv 20 build in herolab.

Unarmed Strike
Attack: +42/+37/+32/+27
Damage: 1d8+37/x3 + 1d4 bleed

Spoiler:

Unnamed Hero
Oni-Spawn Tiefling Fighter 20
NN Medium Outsider (native)
Init +0; Senses Darkvision; Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 5, touch 5, flat-footed 5
hp 184 (20d10+60)
Fort +15, Ref +6, Will +7
Defensive Abilities Bravery +5; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +42/+37/+32/+27 (1d8+37/x3)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Close
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 23/29, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +20; CMB +29; CMD 40 (42 vs. Bull Rush, 44 vs. Disarm, 42 vs. Overrun, 44 vs. Sunder, 42 vs. Trip)
Feats Belier's Bite, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack -6/+12, Stunning Assault (DC 30), Tiger Claws, Tiger Pounce, Tiger Style, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Traits Optimistic Gambler, Quain Martial Artist
Skills Disguise +1, Intimidate +1
Languages Common
SQ Armor Mastery, Armor Training 4, Gloves of Dueling, Weapon Mastery (Unarmed Strike)
Other Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, Belt of Giant Strength, +6, Gloves of Dueling, Robe, Monk's
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
. . -none-
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Armor Mastery (Ex) DR 5/- while wearing armor
Armor Training 4 (Ex) Worn armor -4 check penalty, +4 max DEX.
Belier's Bite When you damage an opponent with an unarmed strike, you deal an extra 1d4 bleed damage.
Bravery +5 (Ex) +5 Will save vs. Fear
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Gloves of Dueling These supple leather gloves grant the wearer gains a +4 bonus to his CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder his wielded weapons, and effects that cause him to lose his grip on his weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Optimistic Gambler Effects that grant you morale bonuses persist 1d4 rounds longer than they normally would as a result.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Stunning Assault (DC 30) Take -5 to all attacks and maneuvers until your next turn to stun opponents hit in melee for 1r.
Tiger Claws Make a single attack with both hands, and combine the results
Tiger Pounce May apply the penalty from Power Attack to AC
Tiger Style Gain +2 to CMD against bull rush, overrun, and trip, and deal slashing damage
Weapon Mastery (Unarmed Strike) (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training: Close +6 (Ex) +6 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons

[Lemmy]

Base damage die is not that important in the long run, anyway. Static bonuses from Strength, Weapon enhancements, etc soon overshadow it.

[Atarlost]

Between weapon training and fighter only feats they make monk unarmed strike look pathetic from pretty early on. Let's assume TWF for simplicity. Assume strength it equal with the fighter's need to pay dex requirements compensated for by not needing to pump wisdom.

At level 1 the unarmed fighter is behind by 2.5 damage per strike and 0.5 str.

At level 2 the fighter can have double slice, already having TWF and power attack. If he's human he could have had it at first level.

At level 3 the fighter took weapon focus, but the monk could do so as well so we'll ignore it except as a prerequisite.

At level 4 the fighter gets weapon specialization and the monk goes to 1d8. Fighter's now behind 1.5 damage per strike.

At level 5 the fighter gets weapon training and is behind 0.5 damage per strike, but has +1 to hit.

At level 8 the monk jumps to 1d10 and the fighter gets greater weapon focus. Monk now +1.5 damage while the fighter is up +2 accuracy.

At level 9 the fighter gets another weapon training boost. He's now again down 0.5 damage and is +3 accuracy.

At level 12 the monk gets to 2d6. Unfortunately for the monk the fighter now qualifies for greater weapon specialization, which puts them even for damage per strike. The monk hasn't done anything to erase that 3 accuracy gap.

At level 13 the fighter adds another +1 accuracy and damage with weapon training. And to add insult to injury he can get Two Weapon Rend. The monk can't because he has fakey fake pseudo-TWF. That was good when it let him TWF with a single temple sword, but it's not good here. That's an extra attack the monk will never see doing 1d10+1.5x strength. Or he could have taken it last level if he thought it would do more than greater weapon specialization.

At level 16 the monk gets 2d8 damage dice. Fighter is now down 1 damage but up +4 accuracy and has two weapon rend.

At level 17 the fighter gets weapon training. Fighter is now even for damage again, +5 accuracy, and has two weapon rend.

At level 20 the monkt hits 2d10 damage, pulling ahead with +2 damage per strike, but the fighter still has +5 accuracy, his fists are x3 crit weapons, and he automatically confirms crits.

From level 5 the fighter is trading damage for accuracy at a better than 1:1 ratio relative to the monk.

[Quatar]

You could also take a 3 level dip into Monk and then take the Monastic Legacy feat.
The fighter then loses 1 BAB and is stuck at level 17, so should still be +4 accuracy ahead (assume Atarlost's calculations are correct), but he now counts as a 11th level monk for unarmed damage dice, increasing that damage to 1d10. He also gets Evasion, fast movement and still mind which might be useful. (he actually gets the 1d10 at 13th level already. 1d8 pretty much as soon as he takes the feat, assuming he has 2 fighter levels at that time already)

He could even take 4th level monk and count as 12th level then, which means 2d6 fists. Also technically also gets a ki pool (but his wis probably sucks)

[SaddestPanda]

Also, the Brawler archetype for fighter ups the damage by 2 over a normal fighter with the close weapon group, which includes unarmed attacks.

Edit: This would make him never fall behind starting at level 3.

Edit 2: It also apparently gets further due to starting 2 levels early.

[Lemmy]

And let's not forget the Brawling armor enhancement, which can be apllied to light armor! It's grants a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls, including CMB checks for grappling. Fighter can use it, Monks can not.

The monk dos have better saves though. And can run really fast.

[blackbloodtroll]

Let's not forget the Monk's Robes.

[Animation]

Cool. Thanks for all the replies.

Conceptually, I want a brawler that isn't very monk-like. Therefore, I would prefer to have no actual levels of monk, and even the Unarmed Fighter seems slightly off-putting only due to the monk weapons being part of his whole thing.

Anyway, I am picturing a tavern bouncer sort of deal who "goes pro" in the adventuring life. So I guess the Brawler and Brass Knuckles would make sense.

But on the other hand, I do really like the Boar line of Combat Style Feats for unarmed strike, just because it seems less monk-like and more furious. But I think rending and bleeding things with my nails seems less like what I want to go for on this guy. Maybe later I would make a half-orc Unarmed Fighter or something at another time.

Anyway, I am starting to see how the Fighter options work.

Thanks for helping!

[Atarlost]

Even a vanilla fighter won't do too shabbily. Armor Training doesn't mesh well with the new brawling property, but otherwise it's a really good ability if you're going to wind up with 20 dex, which a TWF build probably will with the 19 minimum for greater TWF.

[Lemmy]

Animation wrote:

Anyway, I am picturing a tavern bouncer sort of deal who "goes pro" in the adventuring life. So I guess the Brawler and Brass Knuckles would make sense.

But on the other hand, I do really like the Boar line of Combat Style Feats for unarmed strike, just because it seems less monk-like and more furious. But I think rending and bleeding things with my nails seems less like what I want to go for on this guy. Maybe later I would make a half-orc Unarmed Fighter or something at another time.

Anyway, I am starting to see how the Fighter options work.

Thanks for helping!

How about a multi-class Monk (Martial Artist)/ Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager/ Urban Barbarian)?

Martial Artist doesn't have to be lawful and eventually becomes immune to fatigue. Barbarian has more of a Big Bad Bouncer guy style, and the increased DR from Invulnerable Rager allows him to ignore punches from weaklings. Urban Barbarian has Controlled Rage and Crowd Control, two abilities who fit the idea of a bouncer way to well.

It's a solid build too.

[Animation]

I think having Rage is antithetical to the feel I am going for, as is monk. For thjs particular character, I feel Brawler is best. I just didnt quite see where the damage came from, but now I do thanks to responses in this thread.

Thanks!

[blackbloodtroll]

Never let the name of a class define you.

I can easily create, and play a "Ninja" character, without a single level in the ninja class.

This is one the greater benefits of games like Pathfinder.