Hello, fellow players!
Here's the thing. I love skill points. I'm addicted to them. In fact, I suffer a great deal whenever I play a character who has less than 4 skill points per level (including extra points from Intelligence, Favored Class, or Race).
I like skills cause they are one of the few mundane things that are reliable and are (mostly) not game-breaking.
So I was thinking about making them more useful, in order to give mundane characters a boost and reduce (very slightly, I know) magic dependency.
These are the 3 ideas I have:
1 - Giving a "life experience" bonus to all skill.
That is, every character gets a +1 bonus on skill rolls for every 4 character levels he has, so reflect his life experience.
They still need ranks to be capable of using "trained only" skill, though.
2 - Extra skill ranks all around!
Every class who has only 2 skill ranks per level now gets 4. The only exceptions are Int-based casters (Wizards, Witches and maybe, Magi).
3 - Skill specialization!
Now, every one gets a bonus equal to half their character level to a number of skills, similar to the inquisitor's bonus to Intimidate/Sense Motive and the Bard's bonus to Knowledge skills. This bonus vary with class.
The basic idea is this:
Full-casters add this bonus to 1 skill (usually a knowlege skill related to their specialization)
e.g:
Cleric/Oracle - Knowlege (Religion)
Druid - Knowledge (Nature)
Sorcerer - Knowledge (Arcana) or its Bloodline class skill.
Witch - Knowledge (Arcana) or Knowledge (Nature)
Wizard- Knowledge (Arcana)
Non-casting/non-skill monkey classes add this bonus to 2 skills.
Barbarian: Intimidate and Survival
Fighter: Any two skills (from the fighter class skill list) of his choice
Paladin: Knowledge(Religion) and Diplomacy
Skilled classes add this bonus to 3 skills.
Ranger: Perception, Stealth and Survival
Rogues/Ninja: Any 3 skills from their class skill list.
Note that bonus from different classes stack, so a Ranger 4/Barbarian 2 would have a +3 bonus to Survival (rom both his Barbarian and Ranger levels), a +2 bonus to Stealth and Perception (from his ranger levels) and a +1 bonus to Intimidate (from his Barbarian levels).
What do you think?
I'm actually testing the waters with the game I'm running right now by giving everyone 2 more skill points across the board, and it's working out just fine so far. The standard count everyone gets is generally enough to cover everything really essential to a given character, and I'm running with a party so big there's at least one person with just about every skill anyway. So, everyone's using them just to round their character out a little, pretty much all with knowledge skills. Doesn't seem to be having any effect on difficulty, everyone's having more fun. I'll probably make it a standing table rule from here out.
I usually do this:
Aside from Oracle (no change), determine skills per level as follows:
If your class would gain 2 skills/level, you instead gain 4/level. If you would gain 4 skills/level, you instead gain 5 skills/level. Otherwise, no change.
This helps skill-starved classes have some fun expanding their concept without bloating those already overflowing with skills.
I can understand why you wouldn't want to increase int-based caster skill points. I think that's entirely fair. Initially, I did that as well but got generally negative responses.
It's about everyone having fun. So long as other players don't mind the int-casters getting a skill-bump as well, all is good.
What I'm tinkering with right now is making Perception a general class ability that increases with level instead of a skill, quite like Concentration.
I have never seen a player not maxing perception anyway, and it just hasn't got the feel of a skill that you can improve by learning - imho, perception is something that only gets better with time and experience, not by taking classes, like e.g. a knowledge skill or swimming or even sleight of hand.
And, I am also about to increase the skill point per level by 2. For everyone.
EDIT: And I like this approach:
If your class would gain 2 skills/level, you instead gain 4/level. If you would gain 4 skills/level, you instead gain 5 skills/level. Otherwise, no change.
I've seen a few not maxing perception. It's not common, though, and significantly rare if you're handing out more skill ranks.
Yes, it may not work for every group. But in our campaigns, one of the most common phrases is "roll for Perception". In fact, it happens so often (and makes the difference between winning or losing initiative) that it's a no-brainer.
I'm as much addicted to skills as you, but I feel Pathfinder's skills system has nothing wrong (speaking of the general system, not of individual skills' mechanics). Plus, it is already 850% better than 3/3.5 ed. in a great number of ways.
1 - Giving a "life experience" bonus to all skill.
That is, every character gets a +1 bonus on skill rolls for every 4 character levels he has, so reflect his life experience.
They still need ranks to be capable of using "trained only" skill, though.
Ranks already represent life experience. You craft and craft, and you put new ranks (or feats, or class ability bonuses) on it to represent that you're getting better at it and/or achieve new insights on the matter.
Also, it seems like you would want that bonus applied to all skill rolls, but... let's take the easy example of Appraise. The average adventurer never even ties to appraise something, so you're going to give them a bonus based on which life experience?2 - Extra skill ranks all around!
Every class who has only 2 skill ranks per level now gets 4. The only exceptions are Int-based casters (Wizards, Witches and maybe, Magi).
You see, the exception in that rule explains itself... you want to give 4 to whomever has 2, but cut out half (if not more) of the classes that get that 2.
I feel who has 2 only is alright as is. Also, by giving more skill points to some people only, you lower the value of who gets more.3 - Skill specialization!
Now, every one gets a bonus equal to half their character level to a number of skills, similar to the inquisitor's bonus to Intimidate/Sense Motive and the Bard's bonus to Knowledge skills. This bonus vary with class.
The basic idea is this:
Full-casters add this bonus to 1 skill (usually a knowlege skill related to their specialization)
e.g:
Cleric/Oracle - Knowlege (Religion)
Druid - Knowledge (Nature)
Sorcerer - Knowledge (Arcana) or its Bloodline class skill.
Witch - Knowledge (Arcana) or Knowledge (Nature)
Wizard- Knowledge (Arcana)Non-casting/non-skill monkey classes add this bonus to 2 skills.
Barbarian: Intimidate and Survival
Fighter: Any two skills (from the fighter class skill list) of his choice
Paladin: Knowledge(Religion) and DiplomacySkilled classes add this bonus to 3 skills.
Ranger: Perception, Stealth and Survival
Rogues/Ninja: Any 3 skills from their class skill list.Note that bonus from different classes stack, so a Ranger 4/Barbarian 2 would have a +3...
Now, this is the one I'm closer to agree with (but only if it was limited to one skill for everyone, independently of being a non-caster or whatever). But yet, I feel this kills the value of those abilities of certain classes that do the same thing.
In addition, on an overall perspective, if you use your three rules as they are, you'll have really creazy skill bonuses. Except (hopefully) at low levels, no monster will anymore be able to sneak around unnoticed, or, on the opposite, to notice the PCs sneaking around (and who cares of heavy armor penalty, when it's nullified by overflowing bonuses?), no one will fail Use Magic Device checks, no one will fall down while climbing, and so on.
You're making Mythic characters in regards of skills.
I think any rule that adds more bonuses to skills is dangerous. It has the potential to throw off an already questionable system right out of whack... By the time you get a few levels, those 'standard' DC 10s and 15s aren't that tough to make.
Climbing of 5 is pretty safe, Drwoning is nearly impossible...
I kind of LIKE the 'only your level in ranks' limit... and getting 1/2 your level or extra bonuses would need a LOT of playtesting to keep the DCs where they need to be.
However... Adding 2 extra skill points to EVERYONE is pretty awesome. I've always been a fan of more proficiencies... just as long as we aren't too GOOD at them it should still balance quite easily!!!
I think one of the big problems with skills is (at least in my rounds) that if you max out a skill, you will always pass every DC.
Because of this some DMs don't stick to the DC calculation from the CRB which then leads to players maxing out their skills instead of getting a wider range of mid-level skills.
Take survival (track):
You want to track someone who is 2 days ahaead in the wild.
Firm Ground DC 15 + 2 (for two days) = 17, for my inquisitor this is a "auto-sucess", but I even fail smaller timeframes, because the DM adjust the DC according to the skill rangs of the character.
But I agree that some classes should get a few more skill points (e.g. cleric)
every class gets a free profession, craft, and/or perform? allows for fluff without having to use precious skill points?
every class gets a free profession, craft, and/or perform? allows for fluff without having to use precious skill points?
Oooohh... I LIKE that!
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every class gets a free profession, craft, and/or perform? allows for fluff without having to use precious skill points?
I give all characters a free rank in Profession at first level. If they use the Profession in ANY way before they reach the next level, they get another free rank. I have found it helps promote role play within my groups.
I also have ranks in Profession give small bonuses to other skills. Every 5 ranks grants a +1 to 3-5 skills.
Examples:
Librarian: Any 3 Knowledge skills selected at first level, all of which become class skills
Blacksmith: Appraise metal objects, Craft (metalworking), Diplomacy, Sense Motive
Catburgler: Acrobatics, Climb, Stealth
Dancer: Diplomacy, Perform (dance) which becomes a class skill, and one Str or Dex skill depending on dance style
every class gets a free profession, craft, and/or perform? allows for fluff without having to use precious skill points?I give all characters a free rank in Profession at first level. If they use the Profession in ANY way before they reach the next level, they get another free rank. I have found it helps promote role play within my groups.
I also have ranks in Profession give small bonuses to other skills. Every 5 ranks grants a +1 to 3-5 skills.
Examples:
Librarian: Any 3 Knowledge skills selected at first level, all of which become class skillsBlacksmith: Appraise metal objects, Craft (metalworking), Diplomacy, Sense Motive
Catburgler: Acrobatics, Climb, Stealth
Dancer: Diplomacy, Perform (dance) which becomes a class skill, and one Str or Dex skill depending on dance style
I like this idea a lot and will probably incorporate it into my next game.
Aside from Oracle (no change)
Why out of curiosity?
I can understand why you wouldn't want to increase int-based caster skill points. I think that's entirely fair. Initially, I did that as well but got generally negative responses.
It's about everyone having fun. So long as other players don't mind the int-casters getting a skill-bump as well, all is good.
It's not so much because they are caster, but because they already have tons of skill points anyway.
Ranks already represent life experience. You craft and craft, and you put new ranks (or feats, or class ability bonuses) on it to represent that you're getting better at it and/or achieve new insights on the matter.
Also, it seems like you would want that bonus applied to all skill rolls, but... let's take the easy example of Appraise. The average adventurer never even ties to appraise something, so you're going to give them a bonus based on which life experience?
Skill ranks are more representative of practice and training. this bonus is to represent things like "I spent so much time talking to my Cleric friend that I learned a bit about religion, and by watching the Ranger, I learned a thing or two about tracking."
This is the one house-rule I added to my games, and a +1 for every 4 levels doesn't seem to be making them over efficient, but does give them a little help on climbing/swiming and other little things. This bonus is more cosmetical than a real benefit, as it scales quite slowly.
You see, the exception in that rule explains itself... you want to give 4 to whomever has 2, but cut out half (if not more) of the classes that get that 2.
I feel who has 2 only is alright as is. Also, by giving more skill points to some people only, you lower the value of who gets more.
Actually, let's see who has 2 skill points per level...
Cleric, Fighter, Magus, Paladin, Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch, Wizard.3 of 8 use Int to cast. Only 2 of them are full casters. These two I'm pretty sure don't need more skill points than they have, but Paladins, Fighters and to a lesser degree, Clerics, sure could use them.
Now, this is the one I'm closer to agree with (but only if it was limited to one skill for everyone, independently of being a non-caster or whatever). But yet, I feel this kills the value of those abilities of certain classes that do the same thing.
I see. This is the one I'm most uncertain about, although I do like the idea. Giving a larger skill bonus to classes that rely more on them feels simply fair to me. Classes with similar specializations get similar bonus.
A druid will still be an awesome tracker, but not as good as the ranger. Ranger can't cast spells to the same degree as druids or turn into wild beasts, so it only makes sense that they would spend more time improving their mundane skills.
However, this rule does makes me somewhat worried about skill checks DC, (and that's the one reason I didn't apply this to my campaign), but an Inquisitor with the feather domain can add half his levels to Sense Motive, Intimidate, Perception and occasionally, Survival. Knowledge skils too, if he spends a feat, and that is supposedly balanced.
So, yeah, I don't think it'd be game breaking, but I'm still not sure, which is why I was considering, if I ever used htis rule, make it so it doesn't stack with the "life experience bonus" I mentioned in number one.
Thanks for the voicing your concerns, though, it really gave me something to consider.
every class gets a free profession, craft, and/or perform? allows for fluff without having to use precious skill points?
This is an wonderful idea! I shall steal it ASAP! ^^
thanks for the comments, everyone. I have more stuff to think about now. Keep posting your ideas and concerns, so I can maybe notice something I'm not seeing right now.
I'm actually testing the waters with the game I'm running right now by giving everyone 2 more skill points across the board
This is pretty much a standing house rule at our table.
It lets the players who want to max craft basket weaving(or any other functionaly useless but full of flavor option) do so without sacrificing anything crucial do it. And it lets the mix maxers feel like their getting something for free but it's nothing that really breaks anything.
- Torger
Aside from Oracle (no change)Why out of curiosity?
Because I believe Oracle, under the standard paradigm, should have had 2 skills per level rather than 4.
Because I believe Oracle, under the standard paradigm, should have had 2 skills per level rather than 4.Aside from Oracle (no change)Why out of curiosity?
I think 4 skills ranks per level should be the minimum for any class who has no int-based full casting.
I feels bad to have only 2 or 3 to assign... :(
That's why I increase their skills and leave Oracle at 4.
2 - Extra skill ranks all around!
Every class who has only 2 skill ranks per level now gets 4. The only exceptions are Int-based casters (Wizards, Witches and maybe, Magi)
This is what we do. We also add perception to a fighters class skill list.
I can understand why you wouldn't want to increase int-based caster skill points. I think that's entirely fair. Initially, I did that as well but got generally negative responses.
It's about everyone having fun. So long as other players don't mind the int-casters getting a skill-bump as well, all is good.
I get your meaning here, but in my mind there is actually good reason to leave the Int based classes at 2 per level. Those classes have to spend there time learning magic, arcane magic, which for them is only gained one way, good old fashion studying, not from a deity or innate force of personality. They devote so much time to the pursuit of the arcane, they have much less time for other interests.