The druid spell list can be seen as indicative of some of the 'unnatural' stuff a druid is capable of accepting.
Transformation magics, such as shapechange or animal shapes, in which a creature rejects its natural form and tears its flesh and body into a magical copy of an actual living creature other than itself. A flat out rejection of nature, *and* the (temporary) creation of a hollow mockery of another natural creature. Not for nothing is shapechanging one of the most common signs that something in ancient tales that something or someone is not a natural creature, and was generally something done by gods (Zeus, Loki, etc. who rarely used that ability to do anything particularly nice) or unnatural monsters (werewolves, oni, etc.).
Earthquake, fire storm, control weather, storm of vengeance. All great ways to screw up the local ecology. (The storm of vengeance even comes with acid rain, to kill all the wildlife downstream of the area effected, as well!)
Finger of death. Oh hey, there's a necromancy (death) effect! Probably even uses icky negative energy!
Unhallow. Not a nice spell, but one that druids can cast. One of the very few druid spells that has an alignment descriptor, although a druid can be casting [evil] spells as early as 1st level, if he summons a bunch of mites with summon nature's ally 1. And there's those fey, all creatures that, in Golarion, are *also* explicitly from another dimension, and therefore, 'unnatural.'
Blight? Poison? Contagion? Summoning fire elementals from another dimension and loosing them upon our world via summon nature's ally or elemental swarm?
But, really, apart from the lingering effects of these spells (folk killed by finger of death staying dead, aquifers cracked by earthquake, leaving former temperate areas slowing doomed to become deserts, etc.) the most significant 'unnatural' thing on the list would have to be the awaken...
Your interpretations, Set, overlook the fact that a Druid casts these spells IN-SERVICE to those natural forces he serves. "Wrecking the local ecology" is your extrapolation since the Druid oversees the local ecology, and would (theoretically) control/destroy/restart it as he or she sees fit. No hyperbole needed, thank you.
"Dedicated Ossuarite"? Oceanshield, your entire archetype is built on the idea that "nature wastes nothing" with the flavor of "some druids take a darker path". I think you've overlooked my argument (above) that such a druid would be tapping into forces contrary to nature.
Look, I don't really care, except for the fact it's a stupid idea. What makes it stupid? It's not thought-through, and it's not consistent with its own philosophy; a Druid stands to LOSE HER POWERS if she violates its principles. This tells us that they are dedicated servants of higher powers, and ones which are innate parts of the world. Undeath is not part of the world. Death IS, UN-Death is not.
There are no "undead druids".
Why do I make a big deal over this? Players can understand and affect the world around them (player agency) by understanding its philosophies. "Oh, there are undead involved in this plot? I think we can rule out the local druids." or something similar.
Next you'll be saying gelatinous cubes can't be player characters. Ok, that would be weird. But I'd roll with it, with some smoking backstory!!!
Why do I make a big deal over this? Players can understand and affect the world around them (player agency) by understanding its philosophies. "Oh, there are undead involved in this plot? I think we can rule out the local druids." or something similar.
Only to find out they were wrong all along. That there is a sect of druids out there that abides by these blasphemous, heinous, previously thought unnatural principles and retains their powers. Which suggests that perhaps the "natural law" is not so black and white with regard to undead as some people would have them believe.
Which might bring the PC's own moralities into question. What if the zombies you eradicated weren't an unnatural scourge? What if that necromancer who put the skeletons of his village's dead to work in his fields and on the walls of the town as defenders wasn't "tainting the very fabric of reality" with his "foul magic"? What if that mummy guarding that tomb wasn't an abomination in need of destroying, as she would never have harmed anyone other than graverobbers due to her orders to remain at the tomb for all time?
What if you were wrong all along?
Which sounds like an awesome plot to me.
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While not d20, I think the Golgari are some of the best examples of evil, undead-loving druids. More on the Golgari Swarm
Their current leader is a druid lich.
To them, undeath is just part of nature. Their zombies fester with plagues and fungus, spreading microbial life wherever they go. The rot and decay are just as much a part of nature as trees and animals.
Life serves death. Death serves life. The Golgari believe there's no strict delineating line between life and death, but that it is a continuum on which things can exist at any point, shifting one way or the other.
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Undeath blocks that clearing away. That recycling that must occur. Either the world fills with undead or life itself ceases so that new new undead are created. Either way Change gives way to unending Stasis. And without change you don't have life.That is why ultimately those that seek to break the cycle of life and death by means of undeath are the Druid's greatest enemies. A Druid who embraces undeath does so by becoming an Anti-Druid, a traitor to the balance she once embraced.
Only if you equate nature to large living creatures. What of diseases? What of viruses? Etc, etc. All of these can live, feed and grow from dead bodies and are just as natural to exist as a human or wolf.
It's not a far stretch to see a druid who feels justified using undeath as a tool to serve the greater good of balance in the name of the divine they worship (be it a god such as the OPs Spider or nature itself). Just because they use undeath in pursuit of their goals it doesn't mean their aim is to turn the whole world into undead creatures, the same as using awakened creatures as minions doesn't mean they believe every creature should be awakened.
Undeath gives rise to new lifeforms from the old, a corpse is *full* of life and it leaves that life everywhere it goes, spreading disease behind it. Would it be a common belief? Very unlikely, but impossible? Not at all, and directly in contravention of a druids reverence of nature? Not at all, perhaps it skirts nearer the edges than others but using a dead body, full of disease to achieve aims in line with keeping the balance of nature is certainly not breaking the limits of druidism.
Ultimately it comes down to what they seek to achieve, if it's a world of never changing undeath... that's a crime against nature and the balance, they lose druidhood. If it's to wipe out humanity and once only animals are left to leave the world in peace, totally fine. Undead, most especially the unthinking types, but ultimately any sort of controlled are simply a tool for them to use. Remember, this is a world where magic naturally exists...
Ghouls are not screwdrivers. The undead are not "tools".
In this age of moral relativism, perhaps it's difficult for some to understand that there are things that are monstrous, grotesque and abhorrent simply because they exist. To combine this with the art of magic; a will-working to make something come into being, and you've got a druid that has gone too far.
Do the ends justify the means? To the gods, no. The means ARE the ends. I insist on this because the gods have Domains which represent them. They're not a bunch of people who say "Oh yeah, and these domains are good suggestions", no, the Domains are what they ARE. This is why I insist that one's philosophy must be consistent.
And another reminder: Undeath is not "Death".
But...your world, your ideas, your fun.
This really is the key. And finding either a GM who runs a world whose ideas you enjoy, or players who enjoy playing in yours.
I'd not enjoy playing with a GM who puts down laws as absolute as some of these, but they'd just as much probably not enjoy playing in my games where those laws might not be so immutable.
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There are the Druidic sect of fanatical worshippers of Zon-Kuthon, known as the Shades of the Uskwood.
There is even the Shade of the Uskwood feat, that adds Animated Dead to your druid spell list.
Linky to rules support for the very notion, in Golarion, no less.
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Look, I don't really care, except for the fact it's a stupid idea. What makes it stupid? It's not thought-through, and it's not consistent with its own philosophy; a Druid stands to LOSE HER POWERS if she violates its principles. This tells us that they are dedicated servants of higher powers, and ones which are innate parts of the world. Undeath is not part of the world. Death IS, UN-Death is not.
There are no "undead druids".
Well. Very sorry to have ruffled your feathers. Look, I appreciate you have a strong opinion, but really that's all it is. I have presented an undead-themed druid. He becomes undead. So I obviously beg to differ. It exists. There are evidently undead druids. Perhaps not in your world, or even in your imagination. Fair enough. I wouldn't dream of telling anybody a particular artistic expression as created into a particular fictional RPG idea doesn't exist, or is "stupid". As for not being thought through, I can attest that all of the folk here saying "it may be so" or even "it is so" have given the concept a modicum of consideration. Let me be very clear. The concept of death AND undeath (good clarification btw) life and unlife being within the confines of the sphere of interest and causation of druids is completely logical TO ME. Do not seek to presume I am flippant or have approached this with less than a complete approach to theme or function. I like it. It works for me.
The only reason I'M belabouring this is because you rolled out the "stupid idea" and "not thought through". It's completely consistent with any philosophy the GM decides it is. Sheesh. I do honestly see where you are coming from with regard to the RAW philosophy and source of power vs. abominable concept of "undeath isn't death". I haplen to disagree. Oh, and ixnay on the upidstay! ;)
I'm off to roll up a wightborn gelatinous cube dedicated ossuarite. With 3d6 only. Becoz that's how grognards roll...
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There are the Druidic sect of fanatical worshippers of Zon-Kuthon, known as the Shades of the Uskwood.
There is even the Shade of the Uskwood feat, that adds Animated Dead to your druid spell list.
Linky to rules support for the very notion, in Golarion, no less.
Well well well. Looks like these "stupid ideas" also made their way into the Core Setting. How...delicious. Still doesn't make it right. But I for one like it a lot. ;)
Thanks bbt and Set!
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And here's another interesting thread similarly related:
Turning an Animal Companion into an undead
Basically James Jacobs cites the druid class writeup and says its a no-go. Never fear undead druid friends! We will rise up and claw and rend and tear. For Nature, of course! ;)
But remember JJ (or another developer) also said Juju zombies were a mistake... I think he meant as far as Golarion was concerned. I'm also totally into non-evil undead. Again with the unorthodoxy. How do I get out of bed in the morning? Or sleep at night...
And here's another interesting thread similarly related:
Turning an Animal Companion into an undead
Basically James Jacobs cites the druid class writeup and says its a no-go. Never fear undead druid friends! We will rise up and claw and rend and tear. For Nature, of course! ;)
But remember JJ (or another developer) also said Juju zombies were a mistake... I think he meant as far as Golarion was concerned. I'm also totally into non-evil undead. Again with the unorthodoxy. How do I get out of bed in the morning? Or sleep at night...
For your enjoyment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwLzuOMpkFwAs for the Worshippers of Zon-Kuthon...who can say? If I were on the editorial staff I might have vetoed such a thing from being published because it doesn't fit with the philosophy of druids, BUT...hey, I'm sure they make great villains and who can say how the gods relate with one another, especially a corrupted God of Beauty like Zon-Kuthon? Perhaps the PC's setting out to eliminate them IS the gods working against Z-K.
Thanks for the discussion everyone. As ShadowD and Orthos said, it's all about having fun.
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Why is there so much one-true-wayism in here? Seriously guys, you can say 'this wouldn't work in my game' or 'this wouldn't fly in PFS' but to declare that everyone is objectively wrong but you is not cool.
Or you could go tell Wizards of the Coast that they're doing it wrong and shouldn't publish their undead druid fiction amidst their popular card game.
As much as I don't like it, I can actually see that an undead druid is possible, in philosophy, RAW, and the whole package. It is possible that, like some cultures believe in reincarnation, there could be some druids that are tasked to be burdened/cursed/blessed with the task of being consumed by a natural force when their time is done, but in the mean time, they are a force, like the wind or water, that will never truly go away. Undeath is powered by something, and gods are an extension of the world and a possible cause of that something. Said gods were created by something, at some point. So the gods are just one group that has a natural law that not everyone is subject to.
To me, it's definitely not your typical sort, but then again, evil druids aren't either. I always thought that evil druids believe that nature is an uncaring thing, only out for its own preservation. Not quite an entity, but a fickle mistress, as strange as any deity.
So alot of possibilities there.
I know this is an old thread, but I want to know that player's logic would be for feeding an animal companion. Especially one that's a carnivore.
The idea that a druid cannot harm an animal is absurd. Nature includes all parts of the cycle that includes life and death. All things die and in doing so are returned to the cycle. When something dies it ultimately returns to nature by becoming nutrients for other things. Animal are eaten by other animals, plants decompose and enrich the soil, which leads to other living things that start the cycle over again. Respecting nature means understanding all of it, not just the pretty parts. Druids can be of any neutral alignment including NE. That means they can revere the bad parts of nature as well.