Zen archer and Crane Wing


Rules Questions


It states that it takes two hands to use a longbow. Does that mean that inbetween rounds you don't have one hand free for Crane Wing?

If so, can you use Crane Riposte later with Reflexive shot? Or does it have to be an unarmed strike?


bwetwen rounds you can have a hand free (as a free actiona t the end of your turn). Crane wings should work fine.

Scarab Sages

Crane Riposte can be used with any weapon as long as you have the free hand to activate Crane Wing.
I think by RAW you could have the following scenario work:
"Zen Archer attacks while fighting defensively, releases bow with one hand as free action holding it in the other
Zen Archer is attacked and activates Crane Wing
Zen Archer moves free hand to Bow as free action between Crane Wing and Crane Riposte
Zen Archer draws arrow as free action
Zen Archer uses Crane Riposte and Reflexive Shot to make AoO"

The only problem with this is it opens up the exact same scenario for TWF with their greatswords and falchions to do the exact same thing, which is a bit much.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, changing handedness is a free action. At the end of your turn yo simply say you are holding your bow in one hand. At the start of your next turn you say you resume holding it with both hands.

You'll essentially be giving up your attack of opportunities with the bow (in the case of Snap Shot), but that's really the only loss (and it's minor since you have improved unarmed strike anyways).

Scarab Sages

Ooh, good call RD. Technically you can't make that opportunity attack because the only free action called out as being able to be taken when it's not your turn is speaking. So Crane Wing would work, but Crane Riposte would not.


Ssalarn wrote:
Ooh, good call RD. Technically you can't make that opportunity attack because the only free action called out as being able to be taken when it's not your turn is speaking. So Crane Wing would work, but Crane Riposte would not.

if that were true nobody could use clustered shot.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Why wouldn't Crane Riposte work? You have Improved Unarmed Strike, do you not?

Nicos, I don't understand your statement about Clustered Shot.


Ravingdork wrote:

Why wouldn't Crane Riposte work? You have Improved Unarmed Strike, do you not?

Nicos, I don't understand your statement about Clustered Shot.

I was triying to say that if crane riposte do not work then Snapshot should also do not work, because they both needs a free action to retrieve an arrow an put it in the bow.

So i am traiying to say that crane riposte should wook.

EDIT: sorry i mean Snapshot

Scarab Sages

I meant that you couldn't use Crane Riposte to make an attack with your bow.
It's kind of one of those shady rules areas. I would allow the ammunition draw with a bow, because it's a free action as part of another triggered action.
The problem with the bow is you open up a lot of things that shouldn't work with all of this holding your two hander in one hand and regripping it as a free action. The normal issue is that if you aren't wielding the weapon (i.e. both hands on your bow), you don't threaten, and don't provoke opportunity attacks. However since a Zen archer has Improved Unarmed Strike he would still be threatening with his Unarmed Strikes... I suppose once the Opportunity Attack has been provoked you can resolve it with whatever weapon is available, as long as you're threatening at the time the attack is triggered.


Ssalarn wrote:

I meant that you couldn't use Crane Riposte to make an attack with your bow.

It's kind of one of those shady rules areas. I would allow the ammunition draw with a bow, because it's a free action as part of another triggered action.
The problem with the bow is you open up a lot of things that shouldn't work with all of this holding your two hander in one hand and regripping it as a free action. The normal issue is that if you aren't wielding the weapon (i.e. both hands on your bow), you don't threaten, and don't provoke opportunity attacks. However since a Zen archer has Improved Unarmed Strike he would still be threatening with his Unarmed Strikes... I suppose once the Opportunity Attack has been provoked you can resolve it with whatever weapon is available, as long as you're threatening at the time the attack is triggered.

What about reflexive shot

Quote:
At 9th level, a zen archer can make attacks of opportunity with arrows from his bow. The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes, and can still only make one attack of opportunity per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes).

I'm not sure if this means you use the arrow as the weapon or if that allows him to use a bow shot where he would normally use an attack of opportunity with his fists.

Without reflexive shot, I think you could only make the unarmed attack. Which is why the TWF wouldn't be able to do it as there isn't a feat that allows you to attack specifically like that on an attack of opportunity.

I don't think the bowshot would make sense though. I usually operate on the "would it work in real life" principle. The crane wing would be some sort of deflecting martial art and then the riposte is following through with that action to make a counter attack. i could possibly see it if deflecting the attack left the person unbalanced and so there were a few seconds where a highly trained archer could make a shot at point blank range. It is doubtful however.

Scarab Sages

lucien pyrus wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

I meant that you couldn't use Crane Riposte to make an attack with your bow.

It's kind of one of those shady rules areas. I would allow the ammunition draw with a bow, because it's a free action as part of another triggered action.
The problem with the bow is you open up a lot of things that shouldn't work with all of this holding your two hander in one hand and regripping it as a free action. The normal issue is that if you aren't wielding the weapon (i.e. both hands on your bow), you don't threaten, and don't provoke opportunity attacks. However since a Zen archer has Improved Unarmed Strike he would still be threatening with his Unarmed Strikes... I suppose once the Opportunity Attack has been provoked you can resolve it with whatever weapon is available, as long as you're threatening at the time the attack is triggered.

What about reflexive shot

Quote:
At 9th level, a zen archer can make attacks of opportunity with arrows from his bow. The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes, and can still only make one attack of opportunity per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes).

I'm not sure if this means you use the arrow as the weapon or if that allows him to use a bow shot where he would normally use an attack of opportunity with his fists.

Without reflexive shot, I think you could only make the unarmed attack. Which is why the TWF wouldn't be able to do it as there isn't a feat that allows you to attack specifically like that on an attack of opportunity.

I don't think the bowshot would make sense though. I usually operate on the "would it work in real life" principle. The crane wing would be some sort of deflecting martial art and then the riposte is following through with that action to make a counter attack. i could possibly see it if deflecting the attack left the person unbalanced and so there were a few seconds where a highly trained archer could make a shot at point blank range. It is doubtful however.

I'm not 100% on this one myself and was considering many of the same questions. The title of the ability "Reflexive Shot" makes it sound like you're shooting someone with the bow, but the description of the ability makes it seem more like you're stabbing them with the arrow? Perhaps it assumes that you've already got an arrow drawn with your bow?


Ssalarn wrote:

I'm not 100% on this one myself and was considering many of the same questions. The title of the ability "Reflexive Shot" makes it sound like you're shooting someone with the bow, but the description of the ability makes it seem more like you're stabbing them with the arrow? Perhaps it assumes that you've already got an arrow drawn with your bow?

One thing to denote is this

Quote:

Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?

Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.

—Stephen Radney-MacFarland, 10/13/11

That seems to indicate that you can draw an arrow as a free action during the enemies turn.

So maybe it assumes that you quickly draw your bow as per the title.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Both the feat and the class ability say you can make a ranged attack of opportunity. Clearly it is an exception to the standard rule of not being able to take a free action on someone else's turn.

What's the big deal?

Grand Lodge

I don't know that allowing crane wing to be used with a bow is a good idea, as it is a weapon that requires two hands.

It's not strictly against the RAW, but it would follow the same logic that is being presented in this thread, you could simply take one hand off a greatsword/glaive and then put that hand back on afterwards.

So I'd say you're probably going against the intent of the feat.

That said the problem doesn't really rear it's head till you attempt to make attacks of opportunity off of your Crane Riposte with that two handed weapon, bow or otherwise. Where in which you've pretty much defeated the only real limitation that had been present with that feat in the first place.

Quote:
What's the big deal?

The big deal is your archer is immune to being charged with no real drawn backs.


MassivePauldrons wrote:

I don't know that allowing crane wing to be used with a bow is a good idea, as it is a weapon that requires two hands.

It's not strictly against the RAW, but it would follow the same logic that is being presented in this thread, you could simply take one hand off a greatsword/glaive and then put that hand back on afterwards.

So I'd say you're probably going against the intent of the feat.

That said the problem doesn't really rear it's head till you attempt to make attacks of opportunity off of your Crane Riposte with that two handed weapon, bow or otherwise. Where in which you've pretty much defeated the only real limitation that had been present with that feat in the first place.

Quote:
What's the big deal?
The big deal is your archer is immune to being charged with no real drawn backs.

So as long as you make the attack with your unarmed strike it is ok?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Swapping hands as has been described in this thread is full supported by Pathfinder's game developers.

It is intent as well as the RAW.


MassivePauldrons wrote:

Quote:
What's the big deal?
The big deal is your archer is immune to being charged with no real drawn backs.

Well, one of the big drawbacks is that you have to fight defensively or take the total defense action. Either of those is a standard action, which means you're not getting a full-attack. Then, at most, you get two attacks of opportunities against that charging opponent, one attack from the charger leaving a threatened square and one attack from Crane Riposte. It's a useful ability, but it's still a trade-off, and requires a three feat investment to boot.


Rhatahema wrote:
MassivePauldrons wrote:

Quote:
What's the big deal?
The big deal is your archer is immune to being charged with no real drawn backs.
Well, one of the big drawbacks is that you have to fight defensively or take the total defense action. Either of those is a standard action, which means you're not getting a full-attack. Then, at most, you get two attacks of opportunities against that charging opponent, one attack from the charger leaving a threatened square and one attack from Crane Riposte. It's a useful ability, but it's still a trade-off, and requires a three feat investment to boot.
Quote:

Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action

You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.

Fight defensively can be used with a full-round action. So you can flurry while fighting defensively and then end your turn with switching the weapon in your hands.

If this wasn't possible, then a normal monk would find crane style useless as they couldn't have that set up after a flurry.


lucien pyrus wrote:

Fight defensively can be used with a full-round action. So you can flurry while fighting defensively and then end your turn with switching the weapon in your hands.

If this wasn't possible, then a normal monk would find crane style useless as they couldn't have that set up after a flurry.

Ah, I see you're right! I overlooked that fighting defensively was divided between action types in the combat section. Shows how little I fight defensively. In that case, sounds like a pretty solid combination, though I still don't see any major balance issues. Takes a lot of investment to pull it off!


You generally cannot take free actions out of turn, and taking a hand off is a free action. So I would say that if you wish to keep a hand free between turns for Crane Wing, you cannot operate your bow to deliver AoOs with it (via Reflexive Shot) during that time.

Otherwise, it works just fine. You can even fight defensively with ranged attacks, which is something I didn't notice until half a year ago, despite the rule being the same since 3E.


As much as i'll probably be told that i'm wrong, zen archer lets you make attacks of opportunity with the bow already. If say, you were charged, I'd let you make the normal attack with the bow per zen archer rules, and let you make your crane Wing/Riposte since that seems to have been its intent with an unarmed strike. (as it requires a hand free to deflect and strike back)

But i've been wrong before.

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