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I'm building a Halfling slinger in Hero Lab, and I've run into an apparent contradiction.
The Close-Quarters Thrower feat applies to a single "thrown" weapon:
"Choose a type of thrown weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for making ranged attacks using the selected weapon."
In Hero Lab, the list of available weapons for Close-Quarters Thrower includes the double sling and the sling glove, but no other types of slings. The double-sling is categorized as "Projectile, Thrown" and the sling glove is categorized as "Thrown." All other variations of slings are listed as "Projectile".
The only place I see ranged weapons separated into Thrown and Projectile categories is in the Core Rulebook, and none of the slings introduced after that include this distinction.
So how do we distinguish between Thrown and Projectile weapons? It is clearly not "can you add your strength to the damage" or "can you use the item in melee".
Is the difference "assisted" throwing, some kind of apparatus that helps throw the ammunition? If this is the case, then can you still use Close-Quarters Thrower if you are using a spear thrower (Adventurer's Armory, p. 8) or a flask thrower (Gnomes of Golarian)?
Hello there!
As you said, the core rule book and the weapon section in d20pfsrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons) list the sling as a proyectile weapon, here are my thoughts:
I would say that all kind of slings, the spear throwers and flask throwers are projectile weapons, but they are in the thrown section because they way you use them is very close to throwing something with your own hands(specially the sling). They are projectile weapons but they arent close enough to a bow or crossbow or firearm. "Assisted throwing" is a vague distinction since every proyectile weapon functions like a device that offers mechanical assistance and/or advantage at launching/throwing/firing objects, be it bolts, arrows, bullets, wathever. If you think enough, you will find that every projectile weapon is a device that will help you with something you can already do with your own hands.
- A spear thrower helps you throwing spears, harpoons and other spear like weapons or objects.
- Similarly, a flask thrower helps you at throwing splash weapons. There is a special type of crossbow too that lets you launch splash weapons.
- A bow or crossbow offers you a great way to launch specialized darts, adapted to the weapon itself.
- A sling and all of its variants offers you a better way to throw rock like amunition, you can even throw regular rocks and everything that is rock shaped and/or small enough to fit in the sling.
- Firearms are the epitome of doing harm "launching" something, there are plenty of specialized firearms that let you fire many types of stuff.
So, summing up, i think that slings and all of their relatives (except for some variants like the stitched sling which is used as a melee weapon until unstitched) and spear throwers should be treated as projectile weapons for feats and abilities unless some specific feat or ability tells you that you can aply it to projectile weapons in the thrown weapons fighter group.
An example of this is Startoss Style feat chain, from Pathfinder Player Companion: Weapon Master’s Handbook
Startoss Style (Combat, Style)
Your thrown weapons become more deadly.
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.
Benefit(s): Choose one weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group. While using this style and the chosen weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls made with the weapon equal to 2 + 2 per style feat you possess that lists Startoss Style as a prerequisite (maximum +6 damage).
You cannot use this ability if you are carrying a weapon or a shield in your off hand (except for a buckler).
Special: In addition to the chosen weapon, a character with this feat and the weapon training (thrown) class feature can use Startoss Style with any thrown weapons that she wields in one hand.
It doesnt states specifically "you can use this feat with slings, all of its variants,spear throwers and flask throwers" but implies it because all of these are in the thrown weapon fighter group. I hope this helps you, sorry for the wall of text but it was needed to make a complete answer :).
EDIT: The rest of the feat chain would be a weird mechanic with the flask thrower, since lets you attack multiple targets by making the thing you throw bounce off of diferent targets. Unless you house rule it with something like "you decide in which creature make the splash weapon shatter and aply its effects, ending the bouncing there".
I'm ba-ack!
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Slings and Blowguns fall into the confusing rules space of being projectile weapons in the thrown weapon fighter group.
This means that when most feats and abilities mention "thrown" weapons they will not apply to slings or blowguns. However, if a feat or ability mentions a weapon in the "Thrown Weapon Group", such as Startoss Style or Advanced Weapon Training, it will work with a sling or blowgun.
For the OP, since Close Combat Thrower mentions thrown weapons instead of the thrown weapon group, it is not valid whit the sling.
Yeah, the only confusing part is that slings fall into the thrown weapon group for fighters. That's the only time they count as a thrown weapon really.
For basically anything else they count as projectile weapons.
So Trained Throw Advanced Weapon Training couldn't be applied to slings (by my reading) but in order to select Focused Weapon from Advanced Weapon Training you would need to have Weapon Training (Throw) and Weapon Focus (sling) to pick Focused Weapon for slings.
Slings and Blowguns fall into the confusing rules space of being projectile weapons in the thrown weapon fighter group.
I believe it was done mainly to padd out that weapon group.
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I always believed that there were 2 types of slings.
Type 1:
Stretchable bands tied to a Y shaped stick that launched the projectile like a rubber band between your fingers launching a folded piece of paper
type 2:
The bola type of sling, a long stretch of cord with a pocket in the middle. place the bullet in the pocket, tie one end of the cord to your wrist of something then hold the other end of the cord with your hand. whirl the cord above your head, let go of the cord at the correct moment and the bullet goes flying.
I would count type 1 as a projectile while type 2 is something in between but closer to thrown? i could see a stronger character doing more damage with a type 2 kind of sling then with a type 1...
Slings and Blowguns fall into the confusing rules space of being projectile weapons in the thrown weapon fighter group.
This means that when most feats and abilities mention "thrown" weapons they will not apply to slings or blowguns. However, if a feat or ability mentions a weapon in the "Thrown Weapon Group", such as Startoss Style or Advanced Weapon Training, it will work with a sling or blowgun.
For the OP, since Close Combat Thrower mentions thrown weapons instead of the thrown weapon group, it is not valid whit the sling.
A [http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5li4u?Weapon-TrainingAnd-So-Many-Weapons]recent blog post[/url] updated the fighter weapons groups to include nearly all of the available weapons, and all types of slings are in the thrown group, along with other "assisted throw" weapons like the amentum, atatl-atatl, and the flask thrower.
I'm having a hard time understanding why something in the "thrown weapons group" wouldn't count as a "thrown weapon"--how are we supposed to decide when a weapon is a thrown weapon and when it is a projectile weapon? For example, if you use a javelin by itself, it's thrown; if you use that same javelin with an amentum, it's ...? How do we draw the line?
At first I thought it had to do with using ammunition, but the shuriken is "thrown ammunition"...
I always believed that there were 2 types of slings.
Type 1:
Stretchable bands tied to a Y shaped stick that launched the projectile like a rubber band between your fingers launching a folded piece of papertype 2:
The bola type of sling, a long stretch of cord with a pocket in the middle. place the bullet in the pocket, tie one end of the cord to your wrist of something then hold the other end of the cord with your hand. whirl the cord above your head, let go of the cord at the correct moment and the bullet goes flying.
You're Type 1, I would class as a slingshot and don't consider it to be what is meant by the in-game weapon.
Slings and Blowguns fall into the confusing rules space of being projectile weapons in the thrown weapon fighter group.
This means that when most feats and abilities mention "thrown" weapons they will not apply to slings or blowguns. However, if a feat or ability mentions a weapon in the "Thrown Weapon Group", such as Startoss Style or Advanced Weapon Training, it will work with a sling or blowgun.
For the OP, since Close Combat Thrower mentions thrown weapons instead of the thrown weapon group, it is not valid whit the sling.
A [http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5li4u?Weapon-TrainingAnd-So-Many-Weapons]recent blog post[/url] updated the fighter weapons groups to include nearly all of the available weapons, and all types of slings are in the thrown group, along with other "assisted throw" weapons like the amentum, atatl-atatl, and the flask thrower.
I'm having a hard time understanding why something in the "thrown weapons group" wouldn't count as a "thrown weapon"--how are we supposed to decide when a weapon is a thrown weapon and when it is a projectile weapon? For example, if you use a javelin by itself, it's thrown; if you use that same javelin with an amentum, it's ...? How do we draw the line?
At first I thought it had to do with using ammunition, but the shuriken is "thrown ammunition"...
I think the line here is 'what bit ends up in the monster?'.
With daggers, shuriken, throwing axes, hunga mungas, and chakrams, you're tossing the main weapon itself at the foe, so these fall into 'thrown'. With slings, atlatls, and kestroses, you're using the weapon to send something else downrange. The bullet, atlatl dart, or kestros dart is what whacks the enemy, so those go under 'projectile'.
Naturally, some weapons have weird features. Shuriken are treated as ammunition when it comes to drawing them and what happens after their use; honestly, who'd want them without it? And the way slings and atlatls work, they would normally let you add Strength mod to damage regardless of being specially built, as opposed to the heavier pulls on composite bows or the non-factor for strength in crossbows or firearms.
I can imagine one using 'is a throwing motion part of using the weapon?' as a way of doing things, but honestly the main reason I imagine the thrown vs projectile issue is ammo.
Oh, and ammenta? Those things should not be on the weapon table. They are, though, so honestly ... well, you could make a case for the ammentum itself as a 'projectile' weapon that 'launches' a javelin. I'd start declaring javelins broken from the strain (as befits their new status as ammo).