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You can use Touch Injection to apply personal/self target extracts, but not spells. This is one of the (few) advantages alchemist has over other casters, to make up for no cantrips, no ability to "drink defensively", no ablity to group buff with multi-target spells like haste even if you pay the "you suck" tax on Infusion, and so on.
In any case, you're spending two extract slots to do this, and it's quite normal for melee touch spells to not have saves at all.
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Instead of banning this whole extract altogether, basic adjustements will avoid crippling a character concept.
- Saving throw based on the extract's level (we are dealing with a potion affecting the body, so Fort DC 10 + Ext. level + Int modifier).
- No effect on unwilling characters when applying personal only spells.
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Would it be an extract then? Or would those all be spells he listed? I'm still a little confused about how Alchemists differentiate between spells and spells that they turn into elixirs or w/e.
It's very simple: Alchemists don't have spells. Unless they get them from multi-classing, in which case they don't work with any of the alchemist abilities.
To get into a bit more detail: Alchemists don't have spells, they have extracts (which occasionally mimic spells, but behave entirely differently). Normally, they can only apply extracts to themselves. The infusion discovery lets them hand any extract to someone else for them to consume.
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Now for the specific case:
The touch injection extract lets an alchemist take any infused extract and deliver it via touch. (Touch attack roll necessary for touching opponents.) This seems to be a perfectly legitimate (although possibly not officially intended) way to deliver polypurpose panacea to put someone to sleep.
Once the target is asleep, they are asleep for one hour. There's no general rules for sleep, and nothing in this says it's any different from natural sleep (unlike the sleep spell), so if whatever you do would work on someone who has gone to bed for the night, then it will work on them. For purposes of making a touch attack (should one be necessary), you can treat them as helpless:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
They still get to save, and they still technically have an AC, but they're effectively going to be at AC 1 against melee touch attacks, so you'll auto-hit them.
Elude Time doesn't have a save, again because it's a personal extract, and the duration would be determined when it is created ("at the time of casting", which is not the same as the time of drinking it). However, it's only minutes per level, and it's a fifth level extract, so you're not going to be able to chain it very long.
So lets take a look at everything altogether:
One first level extract: Polymorphic Panacea
Two second level extracts: Touch Infusion
One fifth level extract: Elude Time
For each additional min/level you want to keep him asleep, you need to spend another 2nd and another 5th level extract.
A 20th level alchemist has 5 of each level (before bonus for a high mod). It also keeps him out for 20 minutes. So by spending all your 5th level and 2nd level slots, you can keep him in stasis for maybe two hours, with no save. At 13th level, when this first becomes available, you can do it for less than half an hour.
It's a powerful combo, but an expensive one. And it's all predicated on infused extracts of personal spells being legitimate. Block that (as it should be, IMO), and there's no need to ban anything else.
Bobson, thank you for the input. Although it does take quite a few extracts (my alchemist currently has a 32 INT), my alchemist generally spends all of his free time and gold crafting potions in our living campaign as it is his only crafting skill. He is essentially a walking potion shop and fills his Handy Haversack and Bags of Holding with potions for sale at all times (huge stockpile because he has had around 7 months of crafting). I am suprised though that this hasn't been adressed before.
Thank you all.
Potions have much more restrictions on them than extracts. Nothing higher than 3rd level, nothing personal range, etc. About the only thing they can do that extracts can't is be given to someone else with out using the infusion discovery. Between the retrieval time, drinking time, and crafting cost, they don't provide nearly as much power as they may seem...
I like Touch Injection + Skin Send for the horror factor.
Looking forward to doing that in a few levels when I actually have 2nd level slots to spare for fun stuff, rather than just Alchemical Allocation buffing.
Yup I know about potions, but keeping infusions around occupies my extract slots and potions are permanent without . We also have new characters being created constantly so there is always a chance to sell low level potions. Check out the Guildworld charter in my previous post to see why.
And I'm also fairly certain that spells with the personal descriptor are meant to be made in to potions, especially since it says in the alchemist class abilities that an alchemist can make a potion of any third level or lower extract that the alchemist knows (including alchemist specific spells like the admixtures) and for personal spells, you happen to be the "one or more" targeted creature.
And since you brought up potion and extract flaws, I'm going to publish my official Zigg'dem McElroy build on the same website as the guild charter ( http:://www.elderwyrm.com ), I'll have it up in about an hour.
Quick rundown of the solutions to the "drawbacks" of potions:
Retrieval time: solved with a swift action retrieval from a Handy Haversack
Handouts: Infusion is a absolute must and is to be paired with a proper Touch Injection
Cost: ENHANCE POTION. It's all caps for a reason.Check out the build anyway, I guess.
At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
Mutagen
Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
That particular rule is rather hidden - it's not in the Brew Potion feat or the section on potions themselves. It comes from the Magic Item Creation rules on potions.
That being said, alchemists can produce potions that wizards can't, just because they only have 6 spell levels instead of 9, and thus get some things as 3rd level extracts which wizards wouldn't get until 4th or 5th.
Bobson: please link that, or give me a page #? I want to believe you, but it doesn't make sense :/
Post edited to add the link.
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Oh wow! Talk about hidden! I guess I'll eat my hat lol
But I'm not sure it makes sense anyway. I'm willing to accept it, but it's not explained at all. Any thoughts as to why it's not allowed?
It's for the same reason you can't cast personal spells on someone else (except for infused extracts, which is why I dislike that loophole). Personal spells tend to be more powerful than those which you are able to cast on others - this is balanced by the fact you have to actually invest in the appropriate class (or UMD and money for scrolls/wands) in order to be able to cast them. Likewise, they tend to not have saves (even "harmless" ones), because you'll never have reason to resist a spell you're casting on yourself.
That being said, alchemists can produce potions that wizards can't, just because they only have 6 spell levels instead of 9, and thus get some things as 3rd level extracts which wizards wouldn't get until 4th or 5th.
You're thinking of Summoner. He gets all the deep spell level discounts. Alchemist gets boned. Hard. They get...Fluid Form at level 4 instead of 6. That's...about the only spell level reduction they get. Basically all of their spells are at the same spell levels as wizards get them. Which means they get all of them later than them.