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Ok was just looking over the summoning list for a CG summoning cleric I was building for PFS and i just realized that I cannot get an actual outsider on my summoning list until summon monster V?! Is this accurate, are there any ways to alter your list legally, is paizo planning on adding something for those of us who aren't Lawful or Evil so that we aren't just summoning animals till 10th?
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There isn't even ANY chaotic neutral critter on that list.
The prime reason for this is probably that the list was written with Bestiary I, and at that time they hadn't yet written up major outsider races for each alignment.
I've been meaning to write a new table as a house rules with equal numbers of each alignment;
L1: LG, N, CE
L2: NG, CN, LE
L3: CG, LN, NE
L4: LG, N, CE
L5: NG, CN, LE
L6: LG, N, CE
L7: LG, N, CE
L8: NG, CN, LE
L9: LG, N, CE
So the alignments would be distributed so there's always something within reach. It's particularly important for the Sacred Summons feat of course.
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I know right? I have this really cool idea for a cleric that I am dying to run after talking to james jacobs at Gencon and I realized that A.) I can run it with some very cool summoning abilities involved and B.) That the list as written is really only very good for clerics of Asmodeus up until summon VI or a follower of Lamashtu or Rovagug which feels like it runs counter to the whole idea of PFS. I really hope something changes soon as I really want to be able to run a Good Cleric and not feel like my calls for divine aid are not heard lol.
Now that being said does the rule against alignment based spells mean against your god's alignment or your alignment?
God's alignment.
Within one step of [either axis].
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Ohh thank merciful god I at least have that going, the god is CN so I could summon demons if i needed to. Honestly I would love proteans on the list as they would really fit the god's alignment. I would also on a more reaching note like to see more monstrous outsiders for the not E groups like the new agathion from shattered star as I don't really enjoy the pretty human options as much as the more bestial or animal ones which always seemed more interesting and otherworldly until you start getting into the angels and some of the archons. I'd even love to see some qilppoths on the list.
IIRC summoning an Evil creature adds the Evil discriptor to the spell which I don't think is allowed in PFS... I believe.
Also Agathion are in Bestiary 2 aren't they?
Clerics actually can't cast spells opposing their own alignment either (not just opposing their deity's alignment).
So a CG cleric can't cast spells that are lawful or evil, which would include any spells summoning a lawful or evil creature.
Unfortunately, most of the low-level outsiders available on the summon lists are either lawful, or evil, or both. So you'll basically have to stick to summoning celestial animals.
I just realized that I cannot get an actual outsider on my summoning list until summon monster V?!
Elementals come in at II and are outsiders.
Doesn't Summon Monster add the Extraplaner/Extraplanar subtype to the creature.
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I just realized that I cannot get an actual outsider on my summoning list until summon monster V?!Elementals come in at II and are outsiders.
Yeah but to me they always felt more like a creature of nature and well the elements and not really like something with the same ring or tone that normal outsiders have that represent the abstract concepts of the world. I suppose they also just always felt more like something a druid or low level wizard were summoning not the acolyte of a god, unless he followed a god that carried said elements in their portfolio.
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Clerics actually can't cast spells opposing their own alignment either (not just opposing their deity's alignment).
So a CG cleric can't cast spells that are lawful or evil, which would include any spells summoning a lawful or evil creature.
Unfortunately, most of the low-level outsiders available on the summon lists are either lawful, or evil, or both. So you'll basically have to stick to summoning celestial animals.
Son of the Wolfmother's distended womb! This is going to drive me crazy! I just got a very cool idea for a cleric and found out I could fit a lot of my summoning dreams into it and here I sit summoned blocked by a system meant not just for all alignments but for players who are seeking to follow good! I really would love to see something to address this at least to add some more balance to the list in terms of alignment, I think it's something we would all like to see so that we could run clerics who don't have to be diabolists to actually summon something other then rin tin tin the golden wonder dog.
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IIRC summoning an Evil creature adds the Evil discriptor to the spell which I don't think is allowed in PFS... I believe.
Also Agathion are in Bestiary 2 aren't they?
Actually you can cast evil spells the rules for pfs states that if for the greater good your essentially in the clear so long as you don't violate your classes rules (grumble...) and that it sits on the heads of the organization.
Ah...
Elemental are the creatures from the Elemental Planes that provided the material for the material plane.
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Ah...
Elemental are the creatures from the Elemental Planes that provided the material for the material plane.
Yeah but they are again the elements of nature something that always feels to me disconnected from the worship of most gods who are meant to represent abstract concepts of the human mind and experience on an internal level ie devils are corruption of mind through want for power, azatas are the whimsy and creativity of good left to wander, and inevitables are the stoic enforcers of law which they view as the perfect way to codify and understand all that lays before them. Elementals to me always felt like a representation of the uncontrollable elements of nature and the ways they affect the human experience rather then manifestation of it. To try and sum it up when I see a cleric summoning they are pulling up a reflection of their beliefs which is usually best represented by one of the outsider races which are meant to represent those things in various ways while elementals are more natures power in physical form which only really feels applicable to gods who either hold the power of nature in their portfolio or the aforementioned element and it feels weird to call on them when I don't follow a god that holds those things important.
True... Hmm I really need to look into the Summon Monster Table someday...
Ok was just looking over the summoning list for a CG summoning cleric I was building for PFS and i just realized that I cannot get an actual outsider on my summoning list until summon monster V?! Is this accurate, are there any ways to alter your list legally, is paizo planning on adding something for those of us who aren't Lawful or Evil so that we aren't just summoning animals till 10th?
My group has been playing around with Summoners, and in particular with the Summoning lists, making them narrower and more customizable. Check out the 20 or so Summoning list variants on this thread:
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Ok was just looking over the summoning list for a CG summoning cleric I was building for PFS and i just realized that I cannot get an actual outsider on my summoning list until summon monster V?! Is this accurate, are there any ways to alter your list legally, is paizo planning on adding something for those of us who aren't Lawful or Evil so that we aren't just summoning animals till 10th?My group has been playing around with Summoners, and in particular with the Summoning lists, making them narrower and more customizable. Check out the 20 or so Summoning list variants on this thread:
That is really cool I have particular interest in the aberration's list for this character (also favorite monster type ^-^) unfortunately I can't use this for pathfinder society play which is what's really aggravating me.
Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
This is why there are no CN summons.
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Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.This is why there are no CN summons.
Umm actually you can throw the entropic template on any summoned animal making it Chaotic. Also you get demons by Summon III and throughout the list who, lets be honest, would do A LOT MORE HARM THEN A PROTEAN ON AVERAGE why wouldn't those just be removed then and just leave us with Lawful and Good options? The easy answer is people like to summon them and enjoy the risk and all I'm asking for is something like that to be incorporated into the standard game proper.
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Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
The specific spell has no mention of how, why or when a summoned creature may 'not always' obey commands. A throw away comment buried in the magic section might be enough for some GMs to think they can have summons go rampaging against their summoner but without rules support for how and why this happens its the GM taking a player action out of their hands.
That one statement is the only mention of the summoned creature disobeying commands. Unless you count the Assume Control ability of the Infernal Binder.
Proteans didn't show up til Bestiary 2 correct...
Speaking of which Why doesn't the Bestiaries have expanded tables!?
Paizo deliberately decided not to keep updating the tables as they put out new bestiaries -- unfortunately, I cannot locate the message board quote at the moment. As a result, the only updates to the summoning tables would be the implicit addition of the new elemental types and the explicit addition of the entropic and resolute templates from Bestiary 2, with nothing added as far as I know from Bestiary 3.
The specific spell has no mention of how, why or when a summoned creature may 'not always' obey commands. A throw away comment buried in the magic section might be enough for some GMs to think they can have summons go rampaging against their summoner but without rules support for how and why this happens its the GM taking a player action out of their hands.
That one statement is the only mention of the summoned creature disobeying commands. Unless you count the Assume Control ability of the Infernal Binder.
I always took that to be VERY specific situations. Like summoning demons with a protective circle.... Make sure the circle is perfect... or it'll gut ya. ;)
Same with the old 2E 'summon Lycanthrope' spell... it specifically states the creature shows up with zero control of it..
I'd be annoyed if a DM just randomly had the summons run rampant...
but at the same time, I'd be annoyed if 2nd level mage tried summoning an archfiend with the statement 'I summoned it... therefore it does what I want!!'
MANY an apprentice has been flayed with THAT kind of thinking ;)
Wow. Never noticed this before, and it does suck.
Definitely a lack of summonable non-animal outsiders from the Outer Planes. (As opposed to elementals, which are outsiders from the Inner Planes, odd as that sounds.)
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but at the same time, I'd be annoyed if 2nd level mage tried summoning an archfiend with the statement 'I summoned it... therefore it does what I want!!'
So would I!
Mainly though because they don't have any ability to summon an archfiend.
They'd be sacrificing those chickens and goats to no avail and PETA would be all over them.
An Archfiend could be summoned by Gate; and some of them by a 3.5 Malconvoker with the spell from Dragon Mag #336 called Implore. A 2nd level character would end up with animal blood and chalk dust on their face and a massive sense of disappointment.
but at the same time, I'd be annoyed if 2nd level mage tried summoning an archfiend with the statement 'I summoned it... therefore it does what I want!!'
So would I!
Mainly though because they don't have any ability to summon an archfiend.
They'd be sacrificing those chickens and goats to no avail and PETA would be all over them.
An Archfiend could be summoned by Gate; and some of them by a 3.5 Malconvoker with the spell from Dragon Mag #336 called Implore. A 2nd level character would end up with animal blood and chalk dust on their face and a massive sense of disappointment.
Personally, IO'd allow it through some kind of ritual that anyone can do, but require certain skill checks. And even then, wouldn't be under the summoner's control. Can a 1st level commoner summon Asmodeus himself? In theory, possible. Would he survive the experience? VERY unlikely.
Basically, these: Incantations, from 3.5. But that's getting a bit off-topic.