Natural weapons do not have iterative attacks: that's reserved for unarmed attacks and manufactured weapons.
Each natural weapon counts separately, unless the attack description says differently (the difference between "2 claws" which is two attacks, and "claws" which is only one, but would require all of the claws the creature has).
Normally, one of the natural weapons is the Primary (usually a bite, if the creature has one), and all others are Secondary. Barring the Multi-weapon Fighting feat, Secondary attacks are at -5.
So, a creature with Bite/Claw/Claw/Tail slap/Gore/Wing/Wing and a +1 BAB has +1/-4/-4/-4/-4/-4/-4 modified by Str and other attack bonus modifications. Multi-weapon Fighting reduces all of those secondary attacks to -1.
Normally, one of the natural weapons is the Primary (usually a bite, if the creature has one), and all others are Secondary. Barring the Multi-weapon Fighting feat, Secondary attacks are at -5.
So, a creature with Bite/Claw/Claw/Tail slap/Gore/Wing/Wing and a +1 BAB has +1/-4/-4/-4/-4/-4/-4 modified by Str and other attack bonus modifications. Multi-weapon Fighting reduces all of those secondary attacks to -1.
I thought the natural attack description will tell you if the attack is primary or secondary.
Most of them are primary (claws/Bite) which would attack at full bonus on a full attack action. Any natural attacks that are listed as secondary (hooves, tail slap, wings, etc) get the -5 and half str.
The rules dont enforce 1 primary all else secondary (I think that was a 2nd edition claw/claw/bite vestige), the only "all else secondary" rules that I've seen is "if you wield a manufactured weapon, and back it up with natural attacks, all your natural attacks are considered secondary that round"
If you have someplace in the books that says only a single natural attack is primary, please cite the location, b/c if it's true, I've been doing it wrong for awhile.
The one primary and all else secondary is a thing of past editions.
Let me try to simplify things for you a little bit: Multi-Attack ONLY benefits secondary natural attacks. Most of the time you will have only primary natural attacks. But depending on your build (which we don't know fully) you would get:
Horn: Primary, full STR bonus, Full BAB
Tail Whip: Secondary, Half Str bonus, -5 to BAB
Hoof x2: Secondary, Half Str bonus, -5 to BAB
Your "bite attack" Is out of the rules, technically you need to be proficient with it, which means it must be listed. if you are unproficient it would be -4 unproficient, -5 secondary, and probably a size category smaller because you aren't a natural biting monster (like a wolf or something. A horses bite won't be as strong as a large wolf if you understand that)
Also you get NO vestigial attacks with natural weapons, so with a +6/+1 you don't get that +1... ever, unless you pick up a weapon.
EDIT: After further inspection... you are playing a MLP Campaign aren't you.... Unicorn? bah. Look at the Pony or Horse stat blocks
As a fighter with 4 claw attacks, taking weapon focus (claws) and weapon specialization (claws) seems like a good idea :)
Chemlak: You are incorrect as to what defines primary and secondary. The method you used is 3.5. PF states that specific natural attacks are always primary and specific natural attacks are always secondary. Bestiary Table 3-1 (bestiary p302) states which natural attacks are primary or secondary.
Bite: Primary
Claw: Primary
Gore (Horn): Primary
Tail Slap: Secondary
Vixeryz: By 'proficient in everything' I assume you mean 'proficient in all of my natural weapons' since fighters are in fact NOT proficient with everything.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 then your attack bonuses are as follows:
Bite: +1
Claws: +1
Gore (Horn): +1
Tail Slap: -4
Multiattack will ONLY help the tail slap by reducing the secondary penalty from -5 to -2. At that point the attack bonuses (assuming a +1 BAB) become:
Bite: +1
Claws: +1
Gore (Horn): +1
Tail Slap: -1
I hope this helps.
- Gauss
Edit: Higher BAB does not increase the number of attacks for natural attacks. You are still limited to the number of actual number of natural weapons you possess.
There is a whole class of weapons they are not automatically proficient with: Exotic.
Natural Weapons do NOT benefit from iterative attacks. Iterative attacks are the extra attacks you get from having a High BAB.
Here is an example:
Level 1 druid animal companion: BAB+1
Tiger: Bite/Claw/Claw all at +1BAB and all are primary. Total number of attacks: 3.
Level 20 Druid animal companion: BAB+15
Tiger: Bite/Claw/Claw all at BAB+15 and all are primary. Total # of attacks: 3.
Animal companions do not gain additional attacks using their natural weapons for a high base attack bonus.
As you can see, the number of attacks do not change for natural attacks.
- Gauss
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Other notes:
All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race.
Thus, if you gain a natural attack via some means other than as part of your race you MIGHT not be proficient with it unless it states you are or unless you have the appropriate proficiency feat.
Finally:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) can reduce these penalties.
In the quote above it states you do not get additional attacks for high BAB when using natural attacks.
It also states you can combine natural attacks with your manufactured weapon attacks (as long as you do not use the same bodypart for both natural and weapon attacks). But, the natural attack then becomes a secondary attack.
Edit: Example of how this would work.
Assume a level 11 Fighter (BAB+11) has 2 claws and a bite attack. The fighter is also using a 1-handed sword. The fighter performs three attacks with the sword at +11/+6/+1, one attack with his free claw at +6 (+11-5), and one attack with his bite at +6 (11-5). If he had multiattack then the free claw and the bite would be at +9 (+11-2) instead. At this point the bite and claw attacks only do 1/2 of the strength damage instead of full since they are now secondary attacks.
- Gauss
If the statblock says "2 claws (1d6)", then that's two separate attacks.
Also, like Gauss has said a few times, your BAB doesn't matter for determining the number of natural attacks you get. If you have 4 natural attacks, for instance, then you get 4 attacks regardless of if you have BAB +0, +10, or +20.
Two-Weapon Fighting also has no influence on the number of attacks you get with natural weapons.
That's the payoff for getting multiple full-BAB attacks even with a low BAB. See these examples for why natural attacks can be very good:
- If a 1st level fighter uses a sword, he only gets one attack even on a full-round action, while if the same fighter had 2 claws and a bite, he'd get 3 attacks on a full-round action.
- The weapon-using fighter has to reach 11th-level before he has as many attacks as the natural-attacking fighter, and even then his attacks will be at +11/+6/+1, while the natural-attack fighter will attack at +11/+11/+11.
Your "bite attack" Is out of the rules, technically you need to be proficient with it, which means it must be listed. if you are unproficient it would be -4 unproficient, -5 secondary, and probably a size category smaller because you aren't a natural biting monster (like a wolf or something. A horses bite won't be as strong as a large wolf if you understand that)
If you are referring to needing a proficiency to use natural attacks, I present the following.
Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons: Anybody but a druid, monk, or wizard is proficient with all simple weapons. Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Characters of other classes are proficient with an assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Bold text for emphasis.
Wow, I just realized an Abyssal Sorcerer (just to name one, there are others) is not proficient with his own claws. ROFLMAO
Point 1: Natural Weapon is not a listed weapon type on the table of weapons (either simple, martial, or exotic).
Point 2: If Proficiency is not explicitly stated it is granted by polymorph effects or by possessing the natural attack as part of your race.
Point 3: Abyssal Sorcerers gain the ability to use natural weapon: claw but the ability does not state it grants proficiency nor does it state that it is a polymorph effect (polymorph effects grant proficiency) and it is not a racial weapon.
- Gauss
Edit: There are a few abilities that grant natural attacks do not grant proficiency in those attacks.
Just what I have found so far:
Barbarian: Animal Fury (bite)
Draconic Sorcerer: Claws
Orc trait: Tusked (might count as racial)
You may assume that Vixeryz but the rules do not state that. If you can find a rule that states that I would be happy that one more rule did not fall through the cracks.
People (including myself) assume way too much when it comes to the rules. While GMs, like myself, can make corrections during home games PFS GMs are not given the same latitude. Also, there is a desire for the rules to be complete.
Ultimately, what I posted is accurate by RAW. If you can find a rule that gives blanket proficiencies for all natural attack abilities I would love to see it. Note: Proficiency in simple, martial, and exotic weapons do not qualify. Natural Weapons are not listed as simple, martial, or exotic weapons. (Personally, I think they are simple.)
As for rounding: Almost always round down.
Unless otherwise noted, whenever you must round a number, always round down.
- Gauss
As for rounding: Almost always round down.
Unless otherwise noted, whenever you must round a number, always round down.- Gauss
Not that I think anyone needs reminding, but you never know:
Half of -1 one (-.5) rounded DOWN is still -1. Funny how that works. I hate math.
Foghammer, interesting point.
- Gauss
Gauss wrote:
Ultimately, what I posted is accurate by RAW. If you can find a rule that gives blanket proficiencies for all natural attack abilities I would love to see it. Note: Proficiency in simple, martial, and exotic weapons do not qualify. Natural Weapons are not listed as simple, martial, or exotic weapons. (Personally, I think they are simple.)
I think the rule you are looking for is under the heading "Weapons" in the Equipment chapter, subheading 'Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons:'
"All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race."
I think the rule you are looking for is under the heading "Weapons" in the Equipment chapter, subheading 'Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons:'
"All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race."
But isn't that the point? Claw and bite attacks are natural weapons not possessed by any race in the core rule book.
Edit: There are a few abilities that grant natural attacks do not grant proficiency in those attacks.
Just what I have found so far:
Barbarian: Animal Fury (bite)
Draconic Sorcerer: Claws
Orc trait: Tusked (might count as racial)
I would be curious if there are any abilities that, like these, grant natural attacks but also specifically mention whether or not proficiency is granted as well. If not then we should consider that this's probably an oversight in the rules.
Ghostgeneral:
Exactly my point. Note that a Barbarian's Bite attack is not a natural weapon possessed by his race. Thus, does he have proficiency in it?
Also note that an Abyssal or Draconic Sorcerer's claw attacks are not a natural weapon possessed by thier races. Do they have proficiency in them?
The line you are quoting (which I referenced earlier btw) does not affect natural attacks acquired through means that do not belong to the character's race.
If the effect is a polymorph effect then proficiency is acquired by that rule. But the ability must state it is a polymorph effect.
- Gauss
While GMs, like myself, can make corrections during home games PFS GMs are not given the same latitude.
I play a lot of PFS, and while this is true, I have yet to play with a GM who rules with such high RAW standards. I would hazard to say that most PFS GMs are not going to rule that you take the -4 penalty for attacking with your natural weapons.
However, I do realize this is a rules discussion and as such house rules and rules corrections don't belong; but, in my experience, when it comes to PFS, the game is not played purely by the RAW.
Lakesidefantasy:
Glad to hear it. Unfortunately if it ever came up it would create a problem that would have to be resolved. Not all GMs resolve problems the same way.
BTW, this is a case where I won't even bother making a FAQ on since it is such an obvious oversight. However, other problems (such as reach weapons on the diagonal or the Blink spell) are not so clear cut.
- Gauss
Booksy: I agree, it is certainly RAI. :) Honestly, I did not intend on derailing this thread. Just had a 'wow, one more oversight' moment. Don't get me wrong, I love PF compared to 3.5. I just wish it was a bit more cohesive.
- Gauss
Animal Fury does not specify the Barbarian is proficient with its use, but does give details that the Barbarian gains a Primary Natural Attack, and detailed rules on its 'to hit' and damage. Proficiency can only be gleamed as RAI.
I noticed something like this as well and I thought, "might this not be a case where the specific trumps the general rule?" But, after writing it all out I realized the argument didn't hold water, by RAW standards.
A reasonable argument for Socerers gaining profieceny with their bloodline granted claws? They're BLOODLINES, even though not a normal part of their racial make-up, it is an inherited powerin this individuals genetics, by RAW "All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race."
I agree, this is a reasonable argument. However, consider the shapechange school of the transmutationist wizard. (APG p.147) It might be reasonable to consider such a character as an arcane nerd with bear claws on one hand and no proficiency to wield them. He certainly wouldn't gain proficiency for this from race.
EDIT: Sorry to derail as well. Just got caught up in the fun.
What time is it anyway? I should be in bed. :)
Lakesidefantasy: One more ability to add to the list.
- Gauss
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Vixeryz, I am polite to you, how about extending the same courtesy to me?
As for your premise of class feature: show me one place in the rules that states anything granted as a class feature makes you proficient. While I agree (and have been stating this since the beginning) that it is RAI to be proficient with class features this is a Rules forum, not a rules as we think they are intended forum. If we were in a different forum I would flat out agree.
- Gauss
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My turn. Tiefling Alchemist takes "Maw or Claw (Claws)" as an alternate racial trait. Poof, Alchemist has two claw attacks at full BAB etc. Alchemist at second level takes Vestigial Arm as standard discovery and with feat takes "Extra Discovery" for a second Vestigial Arm (Presuming I can hold my feat from 1st level and not use it until second level, if not, then this build gets the second arm at third level). Now it states you don't get "extra" attacks with these arms although they can be used in your "normal" attack routine. Moving right along, the Alchemist then switches to Ranger at third (fourth if above is corrected) level and takes it again at fourth (fifth, you expected this). The Ranger takes Combat Style (Natural Weapon) and as a bonus feat "Aspect of the Beast (Claws of the Beast). Shazam! Now he adds these extra claws to his extra arms and has four natural claw attacks he uses at FULL BAB (full strength, etc) as a Full Attack action. Both the Tiefling traits and Ranger bonus feats state these are primary natural attacks. Now I use Hero Lab (which may not mean squat to you) that also validates this build.
Dangit, I forgot what the question was...