Hello,
Is there any way to mix the two title elements in a class? I started looking under rogue variants but I figure fighter/barb might have a solution.
Note: not looking for self buffs, magic, or items that "close the gap" for 3/4 BAB'ers, I am looking for a full BAB option to get sneak attack if there is one out there.
There is the Buschwacker Gunslinger archetype for Kobolds, but it only gets half Sneak Attack progression.
Hello,
Is there any way to mix the two title elements in a class? I started looking under rogue variants but I figure fighter/barb might have a solution.
Note: not looking for self buffs, magic, or items that "close the gap" for 3/4 BAB'ers, I am looking for a full BAB option to get sneak attack if there is one out there.
Pretty much what Elamdri said. It's a trade-off.
Rogues have much more versatility in skills and debuffs (from Rogue talents, Sneak Attack and the like), so allowing Rogues a full BAB option would upset the balance between a Rogue and another melee with full BAB.
It's about as broken as allowing a Paladin to cast spells as per a Cleric. Insane saves and immunities, high armor, swift self-healing, AND the ability to buff to even further levels, plus resurrect? Why even have a Cleric if a Paladin has the same capabilities as a Cleric except more (and anything it doesn't have makes Cleric class features look like fecal matter from a dog).
Hello,
Is there any way to mix the two title elements in a class? I started looking under rogue variants but I figure fighter/barb might have a solution.
Note: not looking for self buffs, magic, or items that "close the gap" for 3/4 BAB'ers, I am looking for a full BAB option to get sneak attack if there is one out there.Pretty much what Elamdri said. It's a trade-off.
Rogues have much more versatility in skills and debuffs (from Rogue talents, Sneak Attack and the like), so allowing Rogues a full BAB option would upset the balance between a Rogue and another melee with full BAB.
It's about as broken as allowing a Paladin to cast spells as per a Cleric. Insane saves and immunities, high armor, swift self-healing, AND the ability to buff to even further levels, plus resurrect? Why even have a Cleric if a Paladin has the same capabilities as a Cleric except more (and anything it doesn't have makes Cleric class features look like fecal matter from a dog).
Agreed, but unarmed fighter steals some of the monk's interesting bits (style feats for cheap) so I figured it was worth an ask.
@Tristan Low templar seems interesting and might fit the campaign (apocolypse) well, thanks!
It pretty much makes the fighter obsolete with the damage output.
Hello,
Is there any way to mix the two title elements in a class? I started looking under rogue variants but I figure fighter/barb might have a solution.
Note: not looking for self buffs, magic, or items that "close the gap" for 3/4 BAB'ers, I am looking for a full BAB option to get sneak attack if there is one out there.Pretty much what Elamdri said. It's a trade-off.
Rogues have much more versatility in skills and debuffs (from Rogue talents, Sneak Attack and the like), so allowing Rogues a full BAB option would upset the balance between a Rogue and another melee with full BAB.
It's about as broken as allowing a Paladin to cast spells as per a Cleric. Insane saves and immunities, high armor, swift self-healing, AND the ability to buff to even further levels, plus resurrect? Why even have a Cleric if a Paladin has the same capabilities as a Cleric except more (and anything it doesn't have makes Cleric class features look like fecal matter from a dog).
Agreed, but unarmed fighter steals some of the monk's interesting bits (style feats for cheap) so I figured it was worth an ask.
@Tristan Low templar seems interesting and might fit the campaign (apocolypse) well, thanks!
True, but the Unarmed Fighter does not gain access to a Ki Pool and the properties it has, nor can they amplify their fists with specific qualities like the Monks can. The thing about some archetypes is that they take the capabilities of some other classes and mix them in with their own (or come up with some truly unique capabilities).
Not in Pathfinder, they overvalue sneak attack waaaaay too much for that to happen. In 3.5 D&D, there were plenty of ways to go about it. Simplest was just UA's fighter variant that traded bonus feats for SA, but...that was a bad trade. If you just multiclassed rogue-ish and full BAB type classes and added in SA boosters (like Assassin's Stance, for +2d6 SA), you could effectively end up with practically full BAB and full SA progressions.
A class with full BAB and Sneak Attack would be unbalanced.
1. Lolno.
2. Witness, "Exhibit A"
Not in Pathfinder, they overvalue sneak attack waaaaay too much for that to happen. In 3.5 D&D, there were plenty of ways to go about it. Simplest was just UA's fighter variant that traded bonus feats for SA, but...that was a bad trade. If you just multiclassed rogue-ish and full BAB type classes and added in SA boosters (like Assassin's Stance, for +2d6 SA), you could effectively end up with practically full BAB and full SA progressions.
A class with full BAB and Sneak Attack would be unbalanced.1. Lolno.
2. Witness, "Exhibit A"
If there's an Archetype for a Rogue that allows full BAB and Sneak Attack, they better not be a skill monkey on top of it, because that would make full BAB melee classes useless.
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I have never liked the Sneak Attack mechanic.
I think it's silly that we think we cannot imagine a "sneaky" attack, without sneak attack.
In fact, it sometimes seems, that we cannot imagine a sneaky character, without levels in Rogue(or the Ninja archetype).
So, I ask you:
What do you want from sneak attack?
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Not in Pathfinder, they overvalue sneak attack waaaaay too much for that to happen. In 3.5 D&D, there were plenty of ways to go about it. Simplest was just UA's fighter variant that traded bonus feats for SA, but...that was a bad trade. If you just multiclassed rogue-ish and full BAB type classes and added in SA boosters (like Assassin's Stance, for +2d6 SA), you could effectively end up with practically full BAB and full SA progressions.
A class with full BAB and Sneak Attack would be unbalanced.1. Lolno.
2. Witness, "Exhibit A"
If there is a Martial Class that has a full BAB and Full Sneak Attack, why the HELL would you play any other martial character?
If there is a Martial Class that has a full BAB and Full Sneak Attack, why the HELL would you play any other martial character?Not in Pathfinder, they overvalue sneak attack waaaaay too much for that to happen. In 3.5 D&D, there were plenty of ways to go about it. Simplest was just UA's fighter variant that traded bonus feats for SA, but...that was a bad trade. If you just multiclassed rogue-ish and full BAB type classes and added in SA boosters (like Assassin's Stance, for +2d6 SA), you could effectively end up with practically full BAB and full SA progressions.
A class with full BAB and Sneak Attack would be unbalanced.1. Lolno.
2. Witness, "Exhibit A"
I do agree that SA is not worth much compared to other damage boosters like power attack. In our group we have a heavy melee dynamic, flanking will be easy so it was on my list of damage boosters, though I may just swap to inquisitor for free teamwork feats without the team needed.
So, I ask you:
What do you want from sneak attack?
See above.
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You stated only that you want sneak attack to "close the gap".
Not sure what you mean.
Things like Weapon Training, and Rage, and Bane, and Smite, do not require some kind of complicated set up.
Sneak attack always seemed like a pain to me. Every time a new book comes out, I hope for a Rogue or Ninja archetype, that lacks sneak attack.
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Here is a thought:
Take a dip of 3 levels into Vivisectionist Alchemist, then start taking ranks into whatever full BAB class you want
You get the following
1st level Infusions, which are quite good
Mutagen, so a +4 Strength bonus and +2 NA for 30 minutes
2d6 Sneak Attack
1 Discovery (Feral Mutagen!)
Poison Resistance
Poison Use
Swift Alchemy
Your BAB will be a +19, which is almost full, and once you consider you get the Mutagen, which is a +2 to hit, you're actually doing better off.
If there is a Martial Class that has a full BAB and Full Sneak Attack, why the HELL would you play any other martial character?
Because:
Samurai/Cavalier: Buffs and the awesomeness that is a mount and mounted combat.Fighter: I can ALWAYS do damage... Also criticals.
Ranger: I also got spells, a animal companion (bonus points for half-orc bestial rider feat.), favored enemies, and skill points.
Barbarian: Spells weep at AM Barbarian... Or really, superstition, spell sunder, spellbreaker.
Paladin: I tank like a boss. Where's your d10 hit dice, heavy armor proficiency, charisma to saves, and swift heal, eh? Also, Smite Evil and spells.
Gunslinger: Pfft. I can get a flat +xd6 damage to ALL my shots at around level 9.
On a side note, I'd worry more about getting your opportunities to sneak attack at all.
The Spell-less Ranger get's a sneak attack and has full BAB (it's from the Kobold Quarterly). I've ran it in games, and it's pretty well balanced. Note it's not a 'full sneak' it's about every 4 levels, starting at 4th level (going from memory, don't hold me to it).
If there is a Martial Class that has a full BAB and Full Sneak Attack, why the HELL would you play any other martial character?Not in Pathfinder, they overvalue sneak attack waaaaay too much for that to happen. In 3.5 D&D, there were plenty of ways to go about it. Simplest was just UA's fighter variant that traded bonus feats for SA, but...that was a bad trade. If you just multiclassed rogue-ish and full BAB type classes and added in SA boosters (like Assassin's Stance, for +2d6 SA), you could effectively end up with practically full BAB and full SA progressions.
A class with full BAB and Sneak Attack would be unbalanced.1. Lolno.
2. Witness, "Exhibit A"
Assuming Sneak Attack is the class's only major goodie, I wouldn't be overly tempted by it. Sneak Attack is a nice damage boost, but it doesn't measure up that well to all the goodies some other martial classes get. Which would you rather have?
1: Situational + 10d6 damage.
or
2: Situational or limited times/day +10 to hit and damage, spells, skill and initiative bonuses in favored terrains, 5 no-prerequisites bonus feats, and an animal companion.
3: Limited times/day +20 to damage (with other bonuses depending on order), full strength animal companion, Teamwork feats, a choice of bonus abilities and bonus teamwork feats along with the ability to give allies the benefits of those teamwork feats.
4: Situational +20 damage and +ChaMod to hit, and ignore any DR, +ChaMod to all saves, tons of useful auras, swift-action self-healing, and either a boost to your weapon or an animal companion, and spells.
5: Rage bonuses to Strength, Con, and Will saves along with tons of rage powers to give amazing bonuses like pounce, huge save-boosting vs. magic, Damage Reduction, and Improved Uncanny Dodge (so much for sneak attack damage).
6: Always-on +4 to hit and damage that with a couple feats and relatively cheap magic item goes up to +8 to and +10 damage. +4 Max Dex to AC and -4 Armor Check penalties for any armor he wears, ELEVEN bonus feats, and eventual Damage Reduction, automatic confirmation of critical hits, and increased critical modifier on your primary weapon.
Improved Sniping
Bleeding Attack
Vital Strike
Improved Vital Strike
Gtr Vital Strike
Hmm, Pretty good but I would prefer Combat Styles.
Basically this class gives up spells for 7d6 SA.
Another option is to ask your DM to allow the 3.5 Hunter's Eye spell.
With the Magical Knack trait it's worth 7d6 for a 1st level casting.
pretty good.
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Is it the rolling of a lot dice?
Why is it important to be sneak attack, instead of some other bonus to damage?
Do you not like the flat bonuses that are not nearly as situational?
I am not grasping where the "wheeee sneak attack" comes from, compared to other types of bonuses to damage?
Someone should break down the draw of this mechanic, because I am not quite seeing it.
I vaguely remember (meaning it was probably v3.5) an option for a fighter to trade his bonus feats for 1d6 sneak attack each.
I don't recommend creating a feat to gain 1d6 sneak attack because a class that already gets sneak attack could pile them on to get crazy silly.
If you want full BaB + Big bonus damage- cavalier does that.
Unearthed Arcana
Page: 58 (Fighter Variant)
Gain: Sneak attack at every odd level (like a rogue)
Lose: Fighter Bonus feats.
Now mind you this was written for 3.5s Fighter which did not have Bravery, Armor Training, or Weapon Training. Since this only effects your fighter bonus feats you could also mix this class variant with most other Fighter archetypes.
So you get what you want. Full BAB, full sneak attack. All you lose is the bonus feats. Just also remember that PF also increased the number of feats you get from 1 per 3 character levels to 1 every other character level.
Enjoy.
Yes, that's the UA variant I mentioned. SA is not worth the feats. You end up with some loser w/ 2 + int skills and no real way to get SA other than lucky init rolls and flanking with no other class features other than proficiencies and SA. Terrible trade.
Now, the UA rogue variant to swap sneak attack for fighter's bonus feat progression... *heart begins pounding* Any game I possibly can, I take that over SA! Screw SA, it sucks! Feats and skills for the ultimate non-magical "batman"? Yes, please!
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Hello,
Is there any way to mix the two title elements in a class? I started looking under rogue variants but I figure fighter/barb might have a solution.
Note: not looking for self buffs, magic, or items that "close the gap" for 3/4 BAB'ers, I am looking for a full BAB option to get sneak attack if there is one out there.
Tripod Machine's Adventuring Classes: A Fistful of Denarii has a handful of Full BAB/Full SA classes to choose from. They are all well balanced and worth a look.
Also the Cutthroat archetype for the Soulknife in Dreamscarred's Psionics Expanded trades Psychic Strike for Sneak Attack as a rogue one half its level.