Not sure if this is the right place to post it, but the program I use to check for legality is saying 'no,' while the research I've done (PRD, forums, etc.) says 'yes.' I'm very new to the Monk class, so, please bear with me in pointing out my mistakes.
Also, if it's legal, any advice to make it more playable is welcome. I'm considering swapping out 2 levels of sorc for 2 more levels of Monk (to improve AC and unarmed strike, though this would mean giving up Calcific Touch, Haste, and one spell at every other level; not sure which yet).
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 14
HP 109 (if I did correctly: 3*12 [Con] + 6 + 4*2 + 5*2 + 7*7)
Fort 11, Ref 11, Will 10
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft
Special Attacks Stunning Fist, Dragon Bite, Dragon Form
Space 5 Reach 5
STATISTICS
STR 22 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 12 WIS 10 CHA 14
Base Atk 7
Feats Power Attack, Dodge, Cleave, Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Crane Style, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes,
I'm not seeing anything flagrant, so your problem is most likely a fiddly math issue.
It would help if you would break this down further (actual skill choices vs. just giving totals), but right now I think you're overspent on skills even assuming you've been putting favored class bonuses there, which would throw your HP off. I would need to see your breakdown to be absolutely sure.
Things not mentioned that can cause validation errors:
Faction
Sorcerer bloodline (presumably Draconic: ?)
Not being of Lawful X alignment
Missing the two traits
Missing or incorrect Monk bonus feats
Missing Sorcerer spells (Resist Energy is a bloodline bonus spell for Draconic)
Not sure why Dragon Ferocity wasn't showing as a feat option when I was trying to duplicate the build.
I believe he's adding in the points from Dragon Disciple in as well. He could have 18 STR just from buy, then +4 from levels in Dragon Disciple, making the 22 he has. CON would be a buy of 14, then +2 from Dragon Disciple making 16. And that's not even accounting for his 4th and 8th level boosts.
It's pretty hard to determine unless he tells us what he actually bought. It would also help to know what this character's Favored Class is.
Andrew, don't forget that Dragon Disciple gives Strength bumps at certain levels. It may also give Constitution bumps, as well.
Just looked it up, and, with 7 levels of DD, you get Str +4 (2 at 2nd & 4th levels of DD), Con +2 (6th level of DD), +3 Natural Armor (1st, 4th & 7th level of DD), and some other benefits, including an effective 5 level boost to his Sorcerer level.
So, Str and Con can start lower, something must start odd, since he has three +1 stat bumps from level.
Str 14 + 2 (level) + 4 (DD) + 2 (racial) = 22
Dex 14 = 14
Con 13 + 2 (DD) + 1 (level) = 16
Int 12 = 12
Wis 10 = 10
Cha 14 = 14
I think that comes to a 20 point buy, (5 +5 +3 +2 +0 +5), while getting to the final stats, and without any stat boosting items.
Power Attack, Dodge, Cleave, Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Crane Style, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes = 10 feats
checking feat numbers
1 per odd level (1,3,5,7,9,11) = 6
2 for monk bonus feats (level 1 and 2) = 2
2 for Dragon Disciple (2 and 5) = 2
So number wise feats are correct, as for when you can take them well, thats a bit more in the air because of the way you set them out.
You need to list archtype of monk (if you are taking one), im assuming your a master of many styles and are taking dragon style and ferocity (which wont appear in a programs lists if your a normal monk as validation wise you need to be level 5 with a ST 15 which you have neither by the time you want the feat so you must ensure you select the correct monk archtype and that your program can correctly validate said archtype).
Jiggy
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
Okay, maybe I'm a DD noob, but how do you plan on surviving all the way to level 12 with 16 or less AC?
Okay, maybe I'm a DD noob, but how do you plan on surviving all the way to level 12 with 16 or less AC?
I believe that's completely without armor. In this case, his unarmored AC would be 16 (2 Dex, 1 Dodge, 3 Natural Armor). Add armor bonuses and AC boosting items, and it should be higher. Bracers of Armor might help, but since he's not taking a class that gets him armor proficiency, he might be very vulnerable.
Okay, maybe I'm a DD noob, but how do you plan on surviving all the way to level 12 with 16 or less AC?
Mage Armor plus shorter term buffs like for Mirror Image, (wand of) Shield, etc. (Not counting defensive items like rings of deflection, headband of wisdom, etc.)
At least that's how my monk/dragon disciple did it. Mirror Image helps a lot!
Wow, thanks everyone! This is awesome. (To keep the post short, I won't repeat what has been said above about survival up to 12, etc.)
After going through your comments, and double checking the build, I'm positive that, if there's any funny business, it's in the feats. The bloodline, faction, traits, skills, ability scores, and spells have been accounted for.
Apologies for not mentioning the missing stuff above, and the fact that the 2 Monk levels are in Master of Many Styles.
So, he's totally legal at first level, it's just the order the feats are selected (or maybe even the feats themselves) as the char progresses.
A few specific questions, which give me pause: should be able to add Dragon Style with my first level of Master of Many Styles? I think so, but the program seems to get whacky.
Edit:
Here's the breakdown of the feat selection, made some changes that are, I hope, improvements (G: General; M: Master of Many Styles; DD)
L1 (G): Power Attack
L1 (M): Crane Style
L3 (G): Cleave
L4 (M): Crane Wing
L5 (G): Great Cleave
L7 (G): Dragon Style (by now, I have 5 ranks in Acro, plus Improved Unarmed Strike from the Monk levels)
You dont qualify for powerattack at level 1, it requires a +1 BaB which you dont get as a monk till level 2, which means you dont qualify for cleave at 3, and you dont qualify for greatcleave at 5 (as it requires a +4 BaB and by 5 you have a +2 BaB).
So yes your not picking legal feats for your general feats.
Your BaB is as follows
1. 0
2. 0 (as you seem to have gone Sorc at 2 and 3)
3. 1 (first level you qualify for PA)
4. 2
5. 2
6. 2
7. 3
8. 4
9. 5 (First level you get a feat that you qualify for Great Cleave)
10. 5
11. 6
12. 7
your biggest problem will be your to hit rolls, from 1-6 your to hit is around +4-5 (if you start with 14 ST and get +2 ST from a belt at 3-4).
I think this character is going to be a net healing sponge that can't contribute solidly in combat unless you always play down; if you always play down you'll be behind the WBL curve and continue to be behind forever
Monk/Sorc/DD is conceptually interesting but mechanically requires tuning way tighter than you have. Monks aren't intended as front line fighters, if you don't try to make them act like they are they work better. Flurry seems, from observation, to work poorly with power attack for a long time, especially with your painfully slow BAB progression. I mean really, for your first 8 levels you have the equivalent of wizard BAB and are a melee fighter. I believe that Power Attack and Cleave are not feats you want in this build.
Another thing you will have a problem with is that you dont actually get any benefits from the dragon style feats at the moment
You have no flurry (traded for style feats), Dragon style only effects unarmed strikes (unless you possess weapon focus (claw) and feral combat training)
Cleave and greatcleave are designed around 2 handers more than natural attackers, but you cant really use 2handers as you dont get iteratives till way too late in your progression.
You are planning to use bulls strength as a buff but you dont get caster level 4 till character level 7 (by which time you may as well just buy a +4 ST belt and use a better level 2 spell).
Gotta say I love the level of insight I'm getting-thank you.
@Kinevon:
Thanks a million for the feat ordering, that's definitely one way out of the rut!
@Tetsujin:
I def. have no interest in playing down, so, any help in trying to make the concept work would be great :). Picking up Dragon Style is both an RP and mechanical decision, so that would be the last thing I'd trade ;p. I don't have flurry, as Caderyn pointed out, and the point of having Power Attack was to get to Greater Cleave (to help deal with multiple targets). However, from what you've been pointing out, it seems I won't be able to hit at all with with my primary attack, let alone Great Cleave, defeating the purpose. One idea I mention below is swapping 1 Sorc for 1 Fighter, and maybe trying to fit in Weapon Focus (Unarmed).
@Caderyn:
Hmm, I'm confused: Dragon Style adds 1-1/2 Str to my first unarmed strike (Question: if my Str bonus is 6, would style add 3 or 9?), and Ferocity would add half my Str bonus to all unarmed strike (so, opportunity attacks included). And I'm guessing it stacks with Style and works well with the extra attack from Haste. Unless you mean it doesn't work with Claws? I'm not so worried about that, since my low cha means I can only count on claws 5 rounds/day, but if I understand correctly, the claws would be dealing
2d6 + 6*2 + 1d6 (bite) + 3 + 1d6 (acid)
Which is decent on its own (I think, I don't play combat classes!), and has nice synergy with Haste.
@Awesome people here:
My thought at the moment is to drop one level of sorc, pick up one level of Fighter (Unarmed Specialist, unless there's a better idea out there?).
Yes you would be getting it on your single unarmed strike, and any attacks of opportunity you get however that means your damage is only 1d6+9, per attack (modified by gear bonuses). Because you only have 1 unarmed strike paying for a amulet of mighty fists would be insane, you would be better off buying a monk weapon and 2 handing it to get the same damage without needing the dragon style feats.
The point of dragon style is to combine with multiple attacks either through flurry (or two weapon fighting if you trade out flurry), or through enhancing your natural attacks (using weapon focus + feral combat training).
Monk/sorc/DD is alot better on paper than it is in practice as you need to spend 2 rounds every combat activating style feats (its a swift action to activate 1) and your very very vunerable till high levels as your build takes a long time to get started.
For a damage dealer you need to compare your damage if you hit with all attacks with 2d6+9 at levels 1-5, 4d6+24 at 6-10 and 6d6+45 at 11+ (this is what I would consider normal per round damage which is basically a ST18 power attacking greatsword person with no other damage sources and a non magical weapon which honestly isnt a huge investment of feats or points at the higher levels).
I'm holding on to the Great Cleave chain for flavour reasons (I like the concept of hitting more than one opponent), but if this still is teh suck, I'll trade the whole tree (or parts of it), to make the rest of the build workable, if possible.
The point of dragon style is to combine with multiple attacks either through flurry (or two weapon fighting if you trade out flurry), or through enhancing your natural attacks (using weapon focus + feral combat training).
For a damage dealer you need to compare your damage if you hit with all attacks with 2d6+9 at levels 1-5, 4d6+24 at 6-10 and 6d6+45 at 11+….
So, did some number crunching, decided to rework the char based on Caderyn's comments, quoted above. Now it does 3d6+39 (before equipment) on my turn, plus at least one Snake Fang (but more likely two) gives 1d6 + 9 or 2d6 + 18, bringing the total to 5d6+57 (if my math is right).
With +4 Str equipment, base dmg on my turn is 3d6+51, and with two Snake Fangs, 5d6+75.
Here's the gist of these changes:
Spoiler:
I scrapped the PA tree due to the BAB problem (with a -3 penalty, I wasn't going to be hitting much to begin with). I'm sad to see Great Cleave go, but I figured there was little point to hitting multiple targets, if your damage is low.
Swapped out Crane Style/Wing for Snake Style/Fang (bypassing pre-reqs w/ Unarmed Fighter and MoMS). Coupled with Blur/Mage Armor/Shield/Displacement, I should be able to get quite a few attacks.
Sense Motive is fully trained (18, with all bonuses), so, my AC/Touch AC against one attack is 19-39 (which should increase misses as well). If I swap Skill Focus (Perception) for Sense Motive, this goes to 24 (so, AC 25-44). If anyone can share insights about usefulness of Sense Motive vs. Perception (in PFS, specifically), would be much obliged.
Added TWF, to get better use out of Dragon Ferocity.
Added Combat Reflexes, ditto as above.
Added Double Slice to get +3/+4 (with equipment) extra damage (but am willing to swap out, if there's a better choice).
Added Hammer the Gap to get an extra +3/+6 (with Haste) extra damage (but am willing to swap out if there's a better choice).
So, by my noob calculations, I would be doing 3d6 + 39, w/ +15 Attack Bonus (+13 on TWF)
I think this character is going to be a net healing sponge that can't contribute solidly in combat unless you always play down; if you always play down you'll be behind the WBL curve and continue to be behind forever
Monk/Sorc/DD is conceptually interesting but mechanically requires tuning way tighter than you have. Monks aren't intended as front line fighters, if you don't try to make them act like they are they work better. Flurry seems, from observation, to work poorly with power attack for a long time, especially with your painfully slow BAB progression. I mean really, for your first 8 levels you have the equivalent of wizard BAB and are a melee fighter. I believe that Power Attack and Cleave are not feats you want in this build.
Kinevon, what do you think about that concern?
Wasn't what I was looking at, really. I was just trying to vet the original build for legality, not effectiveness.
I don't currently have any monks in my stable, and my only sorcerer is a weird build, and only 2nd level. Second level with 7 cantrips in his memory, fully legal, but not terribly powerful. Air elemental bloodline, and a wand of magic missiles as his, "I need to hurt the enemy." fallback, until he gets to 3rd level.
My forte is fighter-types, archers and now combat maneuver freaks. Lore Warden is my favorite non-vanilla fighter archetype, and whip is my favorite weapon-tool.
Quick note if your a monk you effectively have double slice for free while fighting unarmed,
Read the unarmed damage section of monk which you dont give up as MoMS it says you dont have an off hand for unarmed strikes and always add your full ST bonus to both attacks this applies even with TWF as its not in the flurry of blows section. This means you dont actually need to take double slice at level 7.
Quick note if your a monk you effectively have double slice for free while fighting unarmed,
Read the unarmed damage section of monk which you dont give up as MoMS it says you dont have an off hand for unarmed strikes and always add your full ST bonus to both attacks this applies even with TWF as its not in the flurry of blows section. This means you dont actually need to take double slice at level 7.
Nice! I'd forgotten about that (Edit: More like, I read it and it wasn't even registering!). Hmm, any suggestions on what to replace? Combat Style Master comes to mind, meaning I'm ready to go from my first round (even when surprised, I can use Snake Style as my AC.)
So, the million dollar question: can this iteration of the character make it in PFS? Will he be fun to play as, and with (i.e., for others at the table)?
