so is part of the question going to be how to help them at the higher level without making them trip/grapple machines at the lower ones?
Ugh,
Folks, seriously. We have stated now many times that we are going to take a look at the monk here soon. We've been under a terribly crunch for the past six months, getting Ultimate Equipment and NPC Codex out the door. We are currently working on Ultimate Campaign and Mythic, trying to get On Time as a department. This has caused us no end of problems and delays, one of which is our not being able to take some time to look into some ways to solve some of the monk issues.
Its still on our list. Near the top in fact, but the schedule has to come first. We will get to it, hopefully in the near future.
Until then, play nice. We are all on the same side here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publising
I told them. They wouldn't listen to me. <runs away>
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that does bring up the point that MA brought up about grapple though
If
successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition
(see the Appendices).so did it grab your arm also? if not it is closer to the greco roman wrestling. cause that sentence makes it sound more like you are wrestling. and yeah--the wolf was on the ground when he jumped on it to grapple it. arm bars on a wolf would be hard--an on the ground wolf that was tripped, I see wrestling as your best bet to keep that bite away--but maybe that is just me. when you close in to grappling range you would lose the bonus for it being prone--if you were grappling you have to get down to its level--I guess would be my call.
The grapple condition doesn't really mean you are both wrestling. A creature with the Grappled condition takes -4 to dex, -2 to attack rolls except to maintain or escape the Grapple, can't threaten squares and has to make a concentration check to cast a spell.
If' I'm holding on to someones arm and trying to control their movements, I'm not going to be able to appropriately act against everything that attacks me. I'm also going to be hindered on attacking back because I'm focusing on restraining someone else. At the same time, casting a spell would be very difficult.
This sounds exactly like what happens with the Grappled creature. I'm easier to hit because I'm restraining someone (-4 dex) it's harder to attack back (-2), I can't properly counter people (doesn't threaten) and I'm focusing on restraining someone that wants to get away (concentration for spells). All because I grabbed their arm and won't let go.
As for the wolf, you don't need to wrestle it to restrain it.
I grew up in Alaska, and have lived here the entirety of my life with the exception of a 10 day vacation with my family. I lived the first half of my life 15 miles away from a power source in a cabin in the woods. Growing up the way I did, you learn a thing or too about protecting yourselves. Mainly, don't go anywhere unarmed, and how to deal with creatures.
Have you ever been attacked by a dog? I have, twice in my life. One was a pit-bull, the other a was a mix-breed. The Mix breed attacked me when I was 9 years old, and the Pit-bull attacked me when I was 17 and riding my bike home.
I was playing in my aunt's yard, hitting some baseballs with my cousins. I had a bat, and the Mix-Breed (was a wild/stray dog) attacked me. The first thing I did was smacked that dog with a baseball bat, then ran inside.
The Pit-bull has a greater focus on the grappling part though. I was riding on my bike when the dog broke his leash and started charging me from about 50 ft away. Now, the dog was barking and growling at me, so I was keeping an eye on the dog. I heard the chain snap, and saw him charging. I jumped off my bike and threw it at the dog. He got tangled in the bike, and I moved over and kneeled on the bike and kept the dog pinned. The owner came out and said she saw what happened, and the dog had to be put down because of it.
Now, the dog was prone, laying on the ground, and I wasn't. I grappled the dog, and pinned him, but I wasn't prone. I had the grappled condition, as I couldn't move for fear of that dog getting back up.
This is a real life experience that happened to me, an NPC character with NPC stats and NPC abilities. This is why Grappling is not 'wrestling' as so many people think of it as. Grappling is the ability to physically restrain another creature from behaving normally.
Sure, wrestling is apart of that. But Wrestling is more of Grapple checks, and then the 'Grappled' creature escapes the Grapple and reverses it.
Both aspects of real life can be used using the Grapple moves, but just because they are similar, does not mean Grapple = Wrestling and not Restraining.
Pathfinder Mechanical breakdown of the Pit Bull.
We were both aware of each other (neither was Stealthing).
I heard the chain snap and turned my head, watching the Dog, and he moved (but not double, dumb dog).
Since I turned my head, I reacted first, so I got to go first on the first full round. I threw my bike at the dog as an improvised trip weapon that could also entangle. It probably did something like 1d8 nonlethatl damage, and tripped and entangled the dog. Then I moved forward, adjacent to the dog.
On the Dog's turn, he tried to break free, but couldn't and didn't take his move action.
On my turn, I proceeded to grapple and succeeded. The Bike gives me a +2 circumstance bonus, and the dog is at -6 to CMD (-4 from Prone, and -2 from Entagled). Now the dog is at -8 penalty to Dex (-4 from both Grapple and Entangle)and -4 AC from Prone for a total of -8 to CMD, and I gain a +5 circumstance bonus to maintain the grapple. So I pin him on the following round.
Granted, the whole encounter actually happened in about 4 seconds, instead of the approximately 18 seconds that it would take in Pathfinder. But I felt like Nerding out a little.
I guess what throws me off Tels is it says that "you are grappled also" meaning you cant simply let go and walk away. you would have to make a break grapple also by RAW
instead of saying you suffer the same penalties as the person you are grappling to maintain the grapple, they say "you are grappled also"
I guess what throws me off Tels is it says that "you are grappled also" meaning you cant simply let go and walk away. you would have to make a break grapple also by RAW
No, that's not true at all.
Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target.
Grapple is a hell of a mechanical sub-system that takes a little getting used to in order to figure it out. I spent some time familiarizing myself with the rules, and now that I know them, I find it really easy. It's a great mechanic and I think it fairly closely reflects real life situations.
lol are you sure you are trying to convince me that monks need improvement?
one GM I was at a game with once actually had a grapple flow chart. I need to get a copy of that.
lol are you sure you are trying to convince me that monks need improvement?
one GM I was at a game with once actually had a grapple flow chart. I need to get a copy of that.
You know, I'm beginning to wonder if your players hadn't read that thread I linked to or a post I made in another thread that basically said the same thing. I remember my cousin telling me about how one of his players looked for advice for Monks on the forums and saw a thread about penalty stacking and brought it to his table. I laughed long and loud when I told him that the thread he saw was mine.
Many Maneuvers, and Penalty Stacking, work great, providing two things.
- One, the characters are low level, and therefore, aren't dealing with Huge sized creatures that get massive ability scores and bonuses to CMD.
- Two, the characters roughly fight against medium sized enemies all the time. Even at 20th level, a Monk that is running a grapple build will be fine if all of his opponents are medium sized enemies because they'll roughly have the same bonuses and penalties the Monk will, amounting to about the same chances of landing a Grapple as a first level Monk.
very possible tels. All the monks have that exact same strategy-pin the mob and the party kills it. So I would guess your guide made the rounds.
I know I search the boards for tips on summoner, magus or cleric tips always. I did not like the flood the board with summons tips though when my summoner was a master summoner. I always figured I had an eidelon and i would keep it out.
Thank you very much for flow chart. I did not even realize damage from aoo was subtracted from the grapple cmb
like I said. if you dont value your saves---offer to trade them up for something. It is one thing to talk the talk---lets see monks walk the walk. If those saves are so useless, let the devs know you will trade them for something else.
If the devs decided that the monk had to lose some defensive ability to gain some offensive ability, I would be cool with that. This has never been suggested before by anyone, not even them, so it's never come up.
Besides, when you compare the monk to any other combat class than the rogue, as we have, those saves don't look so awesome compared to the ranger or the paladin.
One thing I always see and worry about is one class looks at a different class and sees something they would like to have and be better at, without realizing that they in return have benefits that that other class does not have. If they got to do as well as that other class in area a--while still holding a significant advantage in area b over that other class, then it isn't fair.I agree with this. One of the things I like about the monk is all the intangibles. Yes in straight up numbers related to combat damage the monk has some issue, and yes he doesn't really fit a niche. However, when playing often I will have moments of "I wish I could do this thing that x class can do". Most of those moments were "if I were a monk, I could do this!". Anecdotal, yes, however most of the monk discussions omit or dismiss all the intangibles.
They are rarely either omitted or ignored. Unfortunately, in the party context they are more often than not simply not relevant - certainly they are no more useful and a lot less versatile than the paladin or ranger's spells.
So you can help the party cross the chasm in three rounds instead of six. Nice, but no great shakes in the grand scheme of things.
we do agree on one thing---the rogues need a fix---and worse than monks. (I quit playing mine at 2--so it isnt even for selfish reasons I say that.) If you look at posts and people tell other posters why not to take a rogue and how to do the trap finding with other classes and there are people arguing that they just roll passively for EVERYONE to find traps (a rogue ability)
I agree rogues are weak. Having played them as well, I found the rogue contributed more than the monk in combat, thanks to that tasty sneak attack.
I also have to add that the rogue is able to do the job he is made to do - as I said above, the rogue is considered weak because other classes can do it almost as well and a lot more besides. But at the end of the day, the rogue functions in a clearly defined position. He has a job to do and he can do it.
another thing I do agree with you on--the dpr thing. I would have no problem with you all getting brass knuckles or something as unarmed so you could plus them. You should have to plus up two just like the rogue does--and would not stack with AMF then. and like I said--dont forget here that your flurry is free----weapon finesse plus twf plus improved twf costs the rogue 3 feats.
A lot of people agree with this. The problem with the AoMF is that it costs more than two weapons, it's capped at +5, and the devs don't want it replaced with anything. The only option is to supplement it with something else, which is why I advocate ki-strike providing an enhancement bonus to hit and a means to bypass DR. It's not about doing massive damage, it's about hitting the target.
however--with the CMB and saves you get--and the AC without spending money on armor as much?---I think you all downplay that way too much.
No, from experience and from crunching the numbers I can tell you emphatically:[list]
Most scenarios I play or fights in APs--saves make the difference. hold person or charm or dominate or any wil vs fighter. any fort save vs caster or rogue. How do you stop the monk? there is no weak...
Yes there is - the monk is weak vs anything that can fight. You either summon something to keep him busy or let your barbarian bodyguard deal with him.
Edit: looking at your experiences, Hakkan, I am betting that these monks were between level 3 and 7, correct? This is the range where maneuvers are actually most effective both in terms of foes and in terms of ability of the monk. Not surprisingly, these are the levels where the monk is most effective.
However, I have seen better builds for maneuvers - including a fighter-grappler who ruled at first level.
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trip isnt a worth while feat chain to invest in past 10. once things start flying, slithering, burrowing, being incorperal, or having a super high CMD... that stcking character stops working.
now grapple, that is a great maneuver to invest in because with a ghost touch AOMF you get to grapple ghosts, why would you want to... i dont know. the fact that you can powerbomb flying creatures, rip burrowing creatures off the ground (assuming you have something to climb up) and ignore serpent creature type is AMAZING.
but now here is the downside to grappling. i can only attack you once for each sucessful grapple check, that means at most i will get 3 attacks. you on the other hand can attack me as many times as you have natural attacks, HELLO Mr. HYDRA!!
here is how i would fix it,
feats for levels 10-20 that give grapplers the ability to reduce attacks of enemies in a grapple, and cmb bonuses similar to improved and greater grapple. that would make me want to grapple things, but as written grapple is a liablility for the grappler.
Edit: looking at your experiences, Hakkan, I am betting that these monks were between level 3 and 7, correct? This is the range where maneuvers are actually most effective both in terms of foes and in terms of ability of the monk. Not surprisingly, these are the levels where the monk is most effective.
However, I have seen better builds for maneuvers - including a fighter-grappler who ruled at first level.
aye that is the levels dabbler. Which is why I asked in one of my posts---"is one of the questions we need to ask then how to increase the effectiveness of monks at higher levels without making them trip/cmb machines at lower levels"
if it is at higher levels monks are broke---but you give them across the board BAB or plus to hit fixes---then at lower levels where they already use penalty stacking, they just become unstoppable. So how to target the fixes to come into play at the higher levels?
Edit: looking at your experiences, Hakkan, I am betting that these monks were between level 3 and 7, correct? This is the range where maneuvers are actually most effective both in terms of foes and in terms of ability of the monk. Not surprisingly, these are the levels where the monk is most effective.
However, I have seen better builds for maneuvers - including a fighter-grappler who ruled at first level.
aye that is the levels dabbler. Which is why I asked in one of my posts---"is one of the questions we need to ask then how to increase the effectiveness of monks at higher levels without making them trip/cmb machines at lower levels"
if it is at higher levels monks are broke---but you give them across the board BAB or plus to hit fixes---then at lower levels where they already use penalty stacking, they just become unstoppable. So how to target the fixes to come into play at the higher levels?
If you want an idea, you could draw from the Lore Warden Archetype for the Fighter.
At 3rd level, a lore warden gains a +2 bonus on all CMB checks and to his CMD. This bonus increases to +4 at 7th level, +6 at 11th level, and +8 at 15th level.
This ability replaces armor training 1.
You could bump it back to 8th level and have it increase every 4 levels (+4 at 12th, +6 at 16th) to help. This keeps them from dominating at early levels, but possibly stay relevant at higher-levels. Tie it in to Maneuver Training to avoid a new Monk ability. Any archetype that loses Maneuver Training would also lose the bonus.
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I think allowing gauntlets or brass knuckles to do unarmed damage and flurry and making it so they can swap wis for str would solve most of the combat gripes.
It did, except the devs (correctly IMHO) think it is not proper flavor for monks to have to have brass knuckles.
So I've suggested making monks hands into masterwork weapons that can be enhances magically at around 3rd level when they become magic.
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I told them. They wouldn't listen to me. <runs away>Ugh,
Folks, seriously. We have stated now many times that we are going to take a look at the monk here soon. We've been under a terribly crunch for the past six months, getting Ultimate Equipment and NPC Codex out the door. We are currently working on Ultimate Campaign and Mythic, trying to get On Time as a department. This has caused us no end of problems and delays, one of which is our not being able to take some time to look into some ways to solve some of the monk issues.
Its still on our list. Near the top in fact, but the schedule has to come first. We will get to it, hopefully in the near future.
Until then, play nice. We are all on the same side here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publising
It's on the list. I would hope before Mythic comes out, because the more that comes out before the fix, the harder a fix is to integrate.
The reason there was an uproar after ultimate equipment wasn't specifically a lack of monk stuff. There was monk stuff. But the monk stuff made the problem harder to fix.
That was the problem.
A very good point although I will add that at this level a fighter concentrating on maneuvers will be even worse - the monk just does it more often because he has fewer options. Let's look at some of the proposals and how they work with this:Edit: looking at your experiences, Hakkan, I am betting that these monks were between level 3 and 7, correct? This is the range where maneuvers are actually most effective both in terms of foes and in terms of ability of the monk. Not surprisingly, these are the levels where the monk is most effective.
However, I have seen better builds for maneuvers - including a fighter-grappler who ruled at first level.
aye that is the levels dabbler. Which is why I asked in one of my posts---"is one of the questions we need to ask then how to increase the effectiveness of monks at higher levels without making them trip/cmb machines at lower levels"
if it is at higher levels monks are broke---but you give them across the board BAB or plus to hit fixes---then at lower levels where they already use penalty stacking, they just become unstoppable. So how to target the fixes to come into play at the higher levels?
- Use Wisdom bonus to hit for attacks with monk weapons, unarmed strike and maneuvers. Actually, this changes very little in many builds, because they will be maxing out on Dexterity or Strength to dish that CMB goodness anyway.
- Grant the monk an enhancement bonus to hit with ki strike, scaling with level. Even if this is applied to maneuvers, below 7th-8th level it's not going to rack on more than +1. Compared with a fighter using a magic weapon to trip or disarm, and it's not really broken.
How does that rack up, Hakken?
sounds like you may be on to something Dabbler. Fix the problem where it is broken rather than across the board adds. Pointing out things like that to Devs will get them to listen more also. It shows instead of just complaining you have actually looked at broken areas instead of just complaining your class is weak.
I know I as a player listen more if a player says "one thing I noticed as a weakness in our class is X" vs "our class needs massive boosts because we are so weak". It makes me see the person as someone who is actually looking at their class in relations to other classes instead of just wanting to be the best. If that makes sense.
From talking to you and MA, where you explain what you are feeling and identify the problems rather than just "we are the weakest class--give us stuff", it has turned around my opinion.
You have shown me you have identified an area where you are weak--while willing to admit at other levels you are not. If you take a player like me who sees the 3-7 monks devastate things and just say "we are weak" most of us will go "what?" Take the time to explain where you are weak while admitting that in other levels/instances you may not and more people from other classes will listen.
As a cleric I could complain about the druid or oracle and their advantages over me---but I have advantage back over them---it all balances out. Sometimes I think "man the oracle has it easy" I am sure sometimes he wishes he had the advantage of a cleric of getting spells one level earlier.
Thanks Hakken! This is why I try and talk to people at face value. There are other things we'd love to see changed, but the fundamental issues are MAD, enhancement to hit, and bypassing DR if the monk is to be an effective combat class.
This sounds nice, but this will pigeon-hole the class in one way, let us not forget, the monk's body *head, arms, legs, etc, etc* are considered as a weapon as well. There should be no exclusion to what can be used, within reason.
I think allowing gauntlets or brass knuckles to do unarmed damage and flurry and making it so they can swap wis for str would solve most of the combat gripes.It did, except the devs (correctly IMHO) think it is not proper flavor for monks to have to have brass knuckles.
So I've suggested making monks hands into masterwork weapons that can be enhances magically at around 3rd level when they become magic.
So I've suggested making monks hands into masterwork weapons that can be enhances magically at around 3rd level when they become magic.
I like this idea quite a bit. I am glad you bolded it to draw attention to it.
This sounds nice, but this will pigeon-hole the class in one way, let us not forget, the monk's body *head, arms, legs, etc, etc* are considered as a weapon as well. There should be no exclusion to what can be used, within reason.
This is exactly why I've never understood the draw to having brass knuckles/gauntlets/fist wraps/etc be the "fix" for monk enhancement.
Monks don't have Natural Weapon: Fist - they have an Unarmed Strike, which can be a lot more than just a punch.A question to fans of the brass knuckles that allowed monk damage (ie: pre-nerf) - If your monk didn't invest heavily in Escape Artist and ended up getting his hands shackled and had to rely on kicking or head-butting, would you allow the bonuses you placed on the brass knuckles to apply? If yes: how do you justify that? If no: Why do you then think brass knuckles were an effective fix?
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This sounds nice, but this will pigeon-hole the class in one way, let us not forget, the monk's body *head, arms, legs, etc, etc* are considered as a weapon as well. There should be no exclusion to what can be used, within reason.This is exactly why I've never understood the draw to having brass knuckles/gauntlets/fist wraps/etc be the "fix" for monk enhancement.
Monks don't have Natural Weapon: Fist - they have an Unarmed Strike, which can be a lot more than just a punch.A question to fans of the brass knuckles that allowed monk damage (ie: pre-nerf) - If your monk didn't invest heavily in Escape Artist and ended up getting his hands shackled and had to rely on kicking or head-butting, would you allow the bonuses you placed on the brass knuckles to apply? If yes: how do you justify that? If no: Why do you then think brass knuckles were an effective fix?
Honestly, the popularity of the brass knuckles as a fix has nothing to do with flavor (which pretty much everyone admits was problematic), and everything to do with mechanics. It gave the monk a way to get reasonably-priced and up to +10 enhancements on their unarmed strikes without taking up an amulet slot. That's what monk players have wanted for a long time.
So, just to be clear, the monk's enemy has captured him, cuffed him, but neglected to remove his magic weapons/items? In that situation, sure, the monk is limited to his non-magical unarmed strikes.
Brass Knuckles weren't the perfect solution, but they were a good enough patch job. A cost effective way for a monk to enhance their unarmed strike in the same way that other classes get to enhance their weapons rather than paying through the nose for the AoMF. I know that when I was playing a monk with brass knuckles it was much easier to imagine his attacks as your typical martial arts flurry of kicks and punches rather than simply throwing right hand punch over and over (this was also before we knew about the TWF clarification) at worst you could fluff it that the monk was using his other kicks and punches to find an opening to use his enhanced brass knuckle to land a serious blow. Not perfect, but fair, and certainly a whole lot better than not having the option at all IMO.
Currently in the game I am, my PC has two pairs, Cold Iron and Silver, the GM waved the limitations *dmg wise* on them. And they were used for maybe two or three game sessions.
Then they got 'retired', cause I felt it was a crutch rather as a helpful additional aid.
This sounds nice, but this will pigeon-hole the class in one way, let us not forget, the monk's body *head, arms, legs, etc, etc* are considered as a weapon as well. There should be no exclusion to what can be used, within reason.This is exactly why I've never understood the draw to having brass knuckles/gauntlets/fist wraps/etc be the "fix" for monk enhancement.
Monks don't have Natural Weapon: Fist - they have an Unarmed Strike, which can be a lot more than just a punch.A question to fans of the brass knuckles that allowed monk damage (ie: pre-nerf) - If your monk didn't invest heavily in Escape Artist and ended up getting his hands shackled and had to rely on kicking or head-butting, would you allow the bonuses you placed on the brass knuckles to apply? If yes: how do you justify that? If no: Why do you then think brass knuckles were an effective fix?
Why discuss items? The devs are NOT going to do an item fix. End of.
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Yelling and arguing (especially when the Devs tell you to let it be while they sort the issue out within a reasonable time).They failed to sort the issue out within a reasonable time six months ago.
Constructively coming up with solutions could then be of merit in establishing a range of options for the devs that have already been tested and approved. Being offensive toward them will achieve precisely nothing of any value whatsoever.
Yelling and arguing (especially when the Devs tell you to let it be while they sort the issue out within a reasonable time).
They failed to sort the issue out within a reasonable time six months ago.
They told us 6 months ago that any fixes or patches wouldn't come until after GenCon and in the mean time, they were devoting all resources to PaizoCon and GenCon. With the announcement of Mythic Rules, I'm betting a large part of their time was playtesting and developing those rules as well.
So they didn't 'fail' anything. To say otherwise is EXACTLY the reason why so many people hate/dislike the 'pro-Monk' crowd on these forums. People making these comments paint all of the Monk fans in a bad light and give us the reputation of bashing the Developers and being an unreasonable group of people that simply 'shout' out any and all arguments or debates.
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So I've suggested making monks hands into masterwork weapons that can be enhances magically at around 3rd level when they become magic.I like this idea quite a bit. I am glad you bolded it to draw attention to it.
Thanks. We've already established monks unarmed attacks are magic, lawful and eventually adamantine. This isn't a big step from the fluff.
Third level would make it a bit deep for a dip, and you could set max enhancement at 1/2 monk level.
If you keep FoB as is now and establish each half of the body is enhanced separately, you not only fix the problem, but create a ton of flavor opportunities. (One hand fire, one ice for example)
Feel free to post a broken version, I don't see it. As an added bonus, it significantly helps the oft complained about VOP monk.
Lemme see...enchant hands for +5 flaming (left) or frost (right) and speed effects then add and Amulet of Mighty Fists for holy axiomatic shocking effects and wear deliquescent gloves for acid? That's +16 worth of effects racked up there.
I don't think it's broken if you exclude other effects from the AoMF, I think it just depends too much on the monk finding someone to enchant what is already enchanted. I prefer using the AoMF for the properties and granting the monk an intrinsic enhancement to hit due to ki-strike. It takes down the issue of DPR, but still leaves the monk effective if they have a means to get through DR.
Ugh,
Folks, seriously. We have stated now many times that we are going to take a look at the monk here soon. We've been under a terribly crunch for the past six months, getting Ultimate Equipment and NPC Codex out the door. We are currently working on Ultimate Campaign and Mythic, trying to get On Time as a department. This has caused us no end of problems and delays, one of which is our not being able to take some time to look into some ways to solve some of the monk issues.
Its still on our list. Near the top in fact, but the schedule has to come first. We will get to it, hopefully in the near future.
Until then, play nice. We are all on the same side here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publising
Dear Jason and co.
Please do not take the opinions as an offense to the dev team.
I know some of the Monk fans are passionate well beyond the tolerable limit, but nearly all of us merely mean well by the end of the day. Like you said, we are all on the same side (except maybe Gorbacz) but we merely have our disagreements on the issue, and that's just part of human nature. I for one am willing to wait for the Monk updates, given I have Paths of Prestige to read up on and my own cynical nature making it hard to ancitipate anything.
Stay Classy, Monk Fans.
Keep amusing me, silly bag.
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Ugh,
Folks, seriously. We have stated now many times that we are going to take a look at the monk here soon. We've been under a terribly crunch for the past six months, getting Ultimate Equipment and NPC Codex out the door. We are currently working on Ultimate Campaign and Mythic, trying to get On Time as a department. This has caused us no end of problems and delays, one of which is our not being able to take some time to look into some ways to solve some of the monk issues.
Its still on our list. Near the top in fact, but the schedule has to come first. We will get to it, hopefully in the near future.
Until then, play nice. We are all on the same side here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublisingDear Jason and co.
Please do not take the opinions as an offense to the dev team.
I know some of the Monk fans are passionate well beyond the tolerable limit, but nearly all of us merely mean well by the end of the day. Like you said, we are all on the same side (except maybe Gorbacz) but we merely have our disagreements on the issue, and that's just part of human nature. I for one am willing to wait for the Monk updates, given I have Paths of Prestige to read up on and my own cynical nature making it hard to ancitipate anything.
Very much this. We all want the monks to be better. I'm willing to wait to make sure it's done right. That and I don't want the Paizo production schedule to be stalled because the whole staff goes, "Wait, we must do nothing but fix the monk!" In the grand scheme of things, I can imagine there are other priorities.
It's annoying that this got spawned by a rules interpretation/misinterpretation that should have been caught two years ago. I would love to jump in my TARDIS and point out the issue to the Dev team in 2007-8 and have them fix it, but my navigation system's completely borked and I'd probably end up at one of the Borgia's dinner parties and that just wouldn't end well. The issue happened, it's frustrating, but all we can do is look to the future and wait for it to be dealt with in due time and done right.
The antagonism here makes me sad. *gives the thread a big hug*
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Lemme see...enchant hands for +5 flaming (left) or frost (right) and speed effects then add and Amulet of Mighty Fists for holy axiomatic shocking effects and wear deliquescent gloves for acid? That's +16 worth of effects racked up there.
I don't think it's broken if you exclude other effects from the AoMF, I think it just depends too much on the monk finding someone to enchant what is already enchanted. I prefer using the AoMF for the properties and granting the monk an intrinsic enhancement to hit due to ki-strike. It takes down the issue of DPR, but still leaves the monk effective if they have a means to get through DR.
It wouldn't stack with AoMF as they would both be enhancement bonuses. If we want to keep AoMF relevant we can have it so you can only add enhancement bonuses to your hands while any special effects (flaming, etc) would need to come through AoMF.
Special properties are not enhancement bonuses, they certainly can stack if you are not stacking the same actual property, that's how deliquescent gloves work.
However, once you are capping the enhancement to +5, why not just make it intrinsic? After all, the black blade gets a free fully enhanced sword. By using a bonus to hit only you would avoid powering up damage, so long as there was another method of overcoming DR.
Special properties are not enhancement bonuses, they certainly can stack if you are not stacking the same actual property, that's how deliquescent gloves work.
However, once you are capping the enhancement to +5, why not just make it intrinsic? After all, the black blade gets a free fully enhanced sword. By using a bonus to hit only you would avoid powering up damage, so long as there was another method of overcoming DR.
Hey, isn't it possible to get slashing unarmed strike thus Black blade unarmed stries?
It would require a Magus to take like Boar Style, Tiger Style, etc?Is there any reason you couldn't?
1. You get an actual magic unarmed strike
You either stay Magus after 3rd level or start level a Monk to boost damage.
The black blade has to be an actual weapon you are gifted with. You could have unarmed strike as a paladin's divine bond weapon, though.
The black blade has to be an actual weapon you are gifted with. You could have unarmed strike as a paladin's divine bond weapon, though.
No, it says the blade can appear in anyway. Not just as a gift, you become level 3, wake up and bam! One appears.
Who is say your hand/body can't become sentient if it works?|
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Intrinsic is too much IMHO, as it negates the cost of functionally TWF.
My opinion is if flurry works like TWF, then allow the monk to enhance his unarmed strike in the same way a Ranger can enhance two weapons for fighting for roughly the same cost.
Are there advantages to unarmed vs a weapon. Yes. Are the equal to the costs and limits of AoMF (taking a slot, more than double cost, having to pay the full amount to go up each level putting you behind other classes, etc...)? No.
The black blade has to be an actual weapon you are gifted with. You could have unarmed strike as a paladin's divine bond weapon, though.No, it says the blade can appear in anyway. Not just as a gift, you become level 3, wake up and bam! One appears.
Who is say your hand/body can't become sentient if it works?
I think you'd have to talk very fast to most DM's to get them to accept that argument; even then, to advance it you have to stay a magus.
Please, no seperation on the monk's whole state of being.
The black blade has to be an actual weapon you are gifted with. You could have unarmed strike as a paladin's divine bond weapon, though.No, it says the blade can appear in anyway. Not just as a gift, you become level 3, wake up and bam! One appears.
Who is say your hand/body can't become sentient if it works?
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The black blade has to be an actual weapon you are gifted with. You could have unarmed strike as a paladin's divine bond weapon, though.No, it says the blade can appear in anyway. Not just as a gift, you become level 3, wake up and bam! One appears.
Who is say your hand/body can't become sentient if it works?
This opens up so many moral questions about sexual consent...
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This opens up so many moral questions about sexual consent...
I WANT BRAIN BLEACH NOW!
I didn't play 3.5, but it seems like the 3.5 flurry was actually better written: only one BAB, no concerns about conflicts between "as if TWF" and "any combination." Fix the flurry of misses problem by directly improving accuracy and Bob's your uncle.
I would agree, adding something like weapon training, but the devs want a tweak fix, not a re-write.
Ah yes. I took the summer off from Board Shenanigans, and they're still here when I get back in September. Fun times.
Really though, I think that a vast number of things could be EASILY applied to monk without causing imbalance if they just decreased unarmed strike damage, and added something like weapon training. (I love how that's finally getting traction. It's just a good idea! :D)
Mostly though, I agree that everybody needs a hug right now. The devs need a hug, the players need a hug...we'll make it through this.
As for tweaking thoughts: Reduce Unarmed strike damage to a static 1d8, let the monk's entire body entire body count as a single weapon for purposes of "unarmed strike" and having it enchanted, and add an iron palm feat/class feature that lets you pay the normal gold costs in "special exotic materials" to magically enhance your unarmed strike like a normal weapon? (Flavor: The monk meditates with incense and punches/kicks something the way real world martial artists perform conditioning training until his body counts as being effectively like a magic weapon. Too bad the stuff he has to beat up and the incense and the scrolls and secret training techniques eat up so much cash. But what can you do?) Also: Some kind of Monk Weapon Training on top of that to compensate for reduced Unarmed Strike Damage Dice.
Additional tweaking thought: Same as above, but forget weapon training, instead allow Wisdom to apply to attack and damage with Unarmed Strike and monk weapons... BUT, never let more Wisdom Bonus apply than a number equal to 1/2 your Monk Level rounded down. (IE: If you had 18 wisdom, +4 Modifier, at level 8 you could apply the entire bonus to attack and damage. However, at level 2, you could only apply up to +1 of that bonus to attack and damage to your unarmed strike/monk weapons. A great benefit that also stops Monk from being a 1 to 2 level dip for an easy attack/damage boost.)
Its good to be back. :D Now lets have awesome discussion, eh?