This has been bugging me for a while. Why is it that those born with the blessed ability to turn into animals and thier hybrids (natural lycanthrops) curse those they bite? Where as those who have been cursed as lycanthropes do not?
In most (i admit not all) media, that is movies, tv, other rpgs, and the like, lycanthropy is a curse, which is passed on by the bite, and those afflicted with the curse can pass it on. Natural Lycanthropes are those people who have been, for lack of a better word, Blessed with the ability to change shape into an animal, why would that blessing be able to pass on a curse?
If we go off of cultural and similar beliefs, the examples of 'natural' lycanthropes of course are rare, but the examples of afflicted are overwhelming, and they all follow the rule of the curse can be passed on, at least I havn't heard of one that isn't (but then I only know movies and a couple other).
One 'natural' of course is skinwalkers - not exactly a natural occuring thing (the person skins an animal and wears it, turning into that animal) but as far as I know, skinwalkers do not pass a curse on.
First off, sorry but the whole "becasue the rules say so", and game "balance is a cop-out", and does not contibute. I know the rules say so, and I know its for some semblance of game balance. I am asking why the game designers thought for that.
Because as for game balance, there are far more 'monsters' that pcs can be turned into, and then pass it on that are far more powerful beyond that off the relativly weak lycanthrope.
Right off my head, Vampires. Player X gets turned into a vampire, and all the other PCS think is a grand idea. Much nastiness (sure, they have to stay out of the sun or stay underground! Compare that simple situation with a werewolf, and you game balance becomes moot.
My origonal posting is about why, not the 'this is what the rules say.' As my origonal posting states, the myths and such that this monster is based on are two seperate things. The natural/blessed/acquired shapeshifter (which does not pass the ability to turn) and the one of a man or woman cursed, who in turn curses those he or she does not out right kill.
After all, typical targets of the rampaging lycanthropes are normal people, who typically wind up dead and eaten. Those that manage to survive are few; not like the vampire who manages to kill via his energy draiin or blood drain. He kills and creates spawn.
So, the question stands as, why would the game designers choose to make these rather drastic changes to the concept of the beasties?
As to wether I change it how I want in my game, I already know that. Sometimes one wants to know the thought processes behind certain rules.
Additionaly, if the characters REALLY wanted to contract lycanthropy, they could simply fight a lycanthrope, and choose to fail thier save. Nothing says you have to make a save agasint an effect, rather it states they may make one.
It's probably so you can have werewolf minions thrown at the adventures at the dozen, and just because someone get hit by a bite attack and takes 10 damage they don't become one too.
The vampire actually has to kill the target to turn them, so if that happens he won anyway.
Thats what I think anyway.
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It's a complex feature of lycanthropic biology. Lycanthropes are not pure beings, like a cat or an elf. They're symbiotic hybrids, a being and a virus (Shapus lycanthropus) working together to create a shapechanging humanoid. These "natural" lycanthropes have evolved ways to pass on S. lycanthropus through a gland in their mouths, allowing the virus to coat their teeth, so when they bite another being, the virus passes on and causes the well known drastic change to the poor victim.
Unfortunately for poor S. lycanthropus, the change in the victim does not include these oral glands, so they are unable to spread the virus by biting like a natural lycanthrope can. It could be a very poor evolutionary feature of S. lycanthropus, but so far they've managed to live on through the natural lycanthropes.
One thing no one seems to consider, however, is other forms of passing on the virus. Natural lycanthropes seem to be able to breed within their own population, and as natural lycanthropes maintain the ability to transmit the virus orally, they are not gaining the virus via the bite. This must mean that they are born with the ability and S. lycanthropus is a part of their base biology. This means that it is either a part of their DNA or they gain in it the womb.
Without further testing, we can only presume non-natural lycanthropes are able to transmit the virus via one of the following means:
1) Non-natural lycanthropic women are able to transmit the disease to their unborn child.
2) It's a sexually transmitted disease.
if the characters REALLY wanted to contract lycanthropy, they could simply fight a lycanthrope, and choose to fail thier save. Nothing says you have to make a save agasint an effect, rather it states they may make one.
Personally, I'd just use Magic Jar. :)
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Because of exponential growth laws.
Because of exponential growth laws.
Exactly. If afflicted lycanthropes were contagious, the disease would very, very quickly overtake pretty much any community. Of course, the same could be said about shadows and spectres.
This has been bugging me for a while. Why is it that those born with the blessed ability to turn into animals and thier hybrids (natural lycanthrops) curse those they bite? Where as those who have been cursed as lycanthropes do not?
In most (i admit not all) media, that is movies, tv, other rpgs, and the like, lycanthropy is a curse, which is passed on by the bite, and those afflicted with the curse can pass it on. Natural Lycanthropes are those people who have been, for lack of a better word, Blessed with the ability to change shape into an animal, why would that blessing be able to pass on a curse?
If we go off of cultural and similar beliefs, the examples of 'natural' lycanthropes of course are rare, but the examples of afflicted are overwhelming, and they all follow the rule of the curse can be passed on, at least I havn't heard of one that isn't (but then I only know movies and a couple other).
One 'natural' of course is skinwalkers - not exactly a natural occuring thing (the person skins an animal and wears it, turning into that animal) but as far as I know, skinwalkers do not pass a curse on.
Okay, time for a history lesson.
The idea of a condition such as vampirism or lycanthropy being passed on from one person to another is an extremely recent development (within the last 150 years or so) that has little basis in actual mythology or legend.
Lycanthropes were more often intentionally self-made, either witches, shamans, or berserker warriors who learned how to change shape through a variety of means (typically magic involving wearing the skin of a wolf/jaguar/whatever). Occasionally a human (such as Lycaon) would be turned into a wolf as a curse or punishment for doing something super bad, but this was actually rare in the legends, and since they couldn't turn back into humans, I'm not sure they should really count as werewolves, anyway; this was really more a case of baleful polymorph. Other lycanthrope-type creatures such as kitsune and weretigers were actually more often magical animals who learned how to take human shape in order to mess with (or eat, or rarely help) humans. Regardless, they never caused others to become werewolves/weretigers/werellamas--they normally just killed their victims and that was that.
Vampires and vampire-like creatures, on the other hand, almost always became vampires accidentally after death--usually because their burial rites weren't performed properly, or because a cat jumped over their corpse or they were born on the wrong day or any number of frivolously random things, although certain religious areas claimed that rebelling against the church would cause you to become a vampire when you died. Unlike werewolves, nobody ever wanted to become a vampire. They typically were gross and drank blood or ate corpses and slept in graves and weren't very sexy. Again, though, they also never turned other people into vampires.
It really wasn't until the 1800s that vampires became popular in European fiction and the idea of them intentionally transforming others into vampires caught on--in part because rabies was a big deal then, and the two ideas got sort of mixed together. Bram Stoker's Dracula may not have been the first story to actually use the idea of one vampire making others, but it was certainly the most influential. After that, vampires were all mostly based on Dracula (although he wasn't harmed by sunlight, so I forget where that came from--probably related to the light sensitivity of rabies victims), so the idea of a master vampire making a harem of minion vampires stuck.
Werewolf-like creatures had a lot in common with vampire-like creatures in certain parts of the world--they all liked to gnaw on corpses for some reason, and vampires were associated with bats and wolves due to the rabies thing--so they got sort of muddled with vampires a little (in some places it was even thought that werewolves would automatically become vampires after death!) and eventually shared the transmitted curse thing. But that wasn't really until around the 1900s. Furthermore, the idea of an anthropomorphic "wolf-man" didn't come around until the film Werewolf of London in the 1930s; before that, werewolves just turned into wolves, not the Lon Chaney-look or the Crinos-form.
So, long story short: Your knowledge of lycanthropy is based on late 20th century/early 21st century fiction, which are highly bastardized versions of actual mythology and legend. I can't think of ANY examples of lycanthropes, "afflicted" or not, passing on their curse, in fact, and it bothers me that we even have afflicted werewolves at all!
I can't think of ANY examples of lycanthropes, "afflicted" or not, passing on their curse, in fact, and it bothers me that we even have afflicted werewolves at all!
All in all, that was a decent history lesson. I've heard a different account, all based on rabies. The rabies virus has been a problem for as long as mankind can remember, and has only been alleviated in the past 150 years. As canines and bats were the two most common animals to transfer rabies to humans, it's easy to see where the vampire/werewolf association came from as time went on. And because the rabies virus has an incubation period of a few months, it was difficult for a lot of people to connect the idea of that dog bite or other animal bite with the infected person going mad and trying to bite others.
Also consider what rabies does to a person. Straight from wiki: "Early-stage symptoms of rabies are malaise, headache and fever, progressing to acute pain, violent movements, uncontrolled excitement, depression, and hydrophobia. Finally, the patient may experience periods of mania and lethargy, eventually leading to coma. The primary cause of death is usually respiratory insufficiency."
There's a new book out on the cultural history of rabies, if you're interested in it. Rabid - A Cultural History of the World's Most Diabolical Virus
Because of exponential growth laws.Exactly. If afflicted lycanthropes were contagious, the disease would very, very quickly overtake pretty much any community. Of course, the same could be said about shadows and spectres.
Well, except that most communities are 1st level commoners, and usualy get killed and eaten by the rampaging lycanthrope.
. After that, vampires were all mostly based on Dracula (although he wasn't harmed by sunlight, so I forget where that came from--probably related to the light sensitivity of rabies victims)
I heard it came from the 1922 Nosferatu movie, but might have been around earlier.
Well, except that most communities are 1st level commoners, and usualy get killed and eaten by the rampaging lycanthrope.
That's an excellent point. Not too many survivors when you only have an average of 3 or so HP.
All in all, that was a decent history lesson.
Thank you! I have to admit, I was a fan of the "exponential growth" and STD answers, too :)
I've heard a different account, all based on rabies. The rabies virus has been a problem for as long as mankind can remember, and has only been alleviated in the past 150 years. As canines and bats were the two most common animals to transfer rabies to humans, it's easy to see where the vampire/werewolf association came from as time went on. And because the rabies virus has an incubation period of a few months, it was difficult for a lot of people to connect the idea of that dog bite or other animal bite with the infected person going mad and trying to bite others.
Also consider what rabies does to a person. Straight from wiki: "Early-stage symptoms of rabies are malaise, headache and fever, progressing to acute pain, violent movements, uncontrolled excitement, depression, and hydrophobia. Finally, the patient may experience periods of mania and lethargy, eventually leading to coma. The primary cause of death is usually respiratory insufficiency."
There's a new book out on the cultural history of rabies, if you're interested in it. Rabid - A Cultural History of the World's Most Diabolical Virus
Yeah, I sort of left a lot of that out, but the connection between rabies, werewolves, and vampires is pretty strong. And I'll add that book to my list of Books I Need To Read; it sounds interesting!
not wanting to quote all of wynternites post :) so replying to it:
I admit, a lot of my information comes form modern day horror fiction, and though I recall reading some things about lycanthropy being passed on from a biter to a bitten, I can't recall the specific legend, but those forms of passing on are very very rare, where as the 'natural' examples are more prolific in myth and legend.
However, I would point out that the natural lychan's of myth NEVER passed on a curse. And since I cannot thnk of any myth/legends of a passed on curse, I will bow that out, however. The dnd/pathfinder lycanthropes are not based on them (since if they were, they would not pass on the curse).
They are based mostly on modern horror. In modern horror, werewolves were feral monsters in wolf form that go on rampages and kill. Those that survive the attack (the rare) discover they are cursed with the same affliction.
Only very reciently has the 'natural' lycanthrop entered into the picture of rpgs (as opposed to myth), and they in general do not pass on the curse. They are men that can turn into animals (and the occational animal that can turn into a human) and hybrid forms. They can be evil nasty people, or can be good and stalwart ones, but if they bit you, you did not turn into one of them.
The dnd/pathfinder model is opposite that. If a person naturally has the ability to change shape, why is there a curse that is passed on? Think of it like this. If you get bit by a wolf, you don't get turned into a wolf. The animal an hybrid forms of a natural lycanthrope are JUST as natural to him as his human form. There should be no curse to pass on.
As for the bit about why they did a natural and afflicted. Taking away the whole passing the curse. I would see the natural and afflicted like this:
A natural lycanthrope isnt always born with it. As meantioned, there are numerous shapechangers out there that fit this bill: skinwalkers, the Úlfhednar and others. These have voluntary willing control over thier form.
An afflicted of course has not control. And while they do not pass on the curse, they typically have no control over the form or what they do. People excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church in the as well as some cursed by the saints of said church were said to become werewolves.
I think the distinction should be inherited/acquired (which would be the natural, without being able to pass the curse on) and of course cursed (which would be the afflicted).
But back to the whole root is that, a natural shouldnt be able to pass somoething like that on. Where as with an afflicted one would pass it on, if that was part of the curse (the children of a afflicted/cursed should be afflicted/curse). Where as the children of a natural aught to depend on the way they got it. A divine bequethment should nbot be passed on, but if it really is a completly natural state (that is the character is born a lycan) then the children are too. That is, if the genetics are altered).
I hope I am putting this out coherently.
Both Rabies and Porphyria have been attributed to both vampiric and werewolf legends in the past, and what I have been reading, has supporteds and distractors.
Aw-oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
. After that, vampires were all mostly based on Dracula (although he wasn't harmed by sunlight, so I forget where that came from--probably related to the light sensitivity of rabies victims)I heard it came from the 1922 Nosferatu movie, but might have been around earlier.
I own a copy of that movie; it's such a fantastic flick (even if it is a silent film).
Nosferatu was a blatant ripoff of Dracula. The history behind the film is fairly interesting. Nearly every time it has popped up somewhere, the Stoker family has sued for copyright infringement. The first instance of the lawsuit resulted in the company who made Nosferatu going bankrupt and all the copies of the film burned (except one, which is why it still exists today). Subsequent lawsuits just had the film taken out of any theaters it was playing in at the time.
Today, I have no idea what the legal use for it is, but I would imagine that it's way past it's copyright period, seeing that you can buy dvd's of it at walmart.
But yes, it's one of the first instances that I know of where the vampire was harmed by daylight.
2. because some background things are better left for GM's to create to set the particular flavor of their own campaign settings. Werewolves may look the same in Greyhawk and the World of Darkness, but the stories and justifications behind them can't be more different.
But then why should all natural werewolves regardless of setting be able to curse others, and afflicted not? If the stories and justifications change per setting, then mechanics should be able to change to match it.
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First off, sorry but the whole "becasue the rules say so", and game "balance is a cop-out", and does not contibute.
Wow, attack people much? Why not stick to the ideas? Just because you do not like an answer does not make it a cop-out. Calling it a cop-out just seems to indicate you don't have an actual response for the answer.
The answer is game balance. Because they don't want some goober running around turning everyone in sight into an evil minion of darkness. You claimed there are "far more monsters" and then just listed vampires. Not a convincing position. Anyway, that is the rule, and that is the why. as the previous poster indicated, munchkins mess things up for everyone. House rule as you deem appropriate.