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Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.
Characters with Uncanny Dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat.
So, suppose I have Combat Reflexes and someone provokes an AoO from me. I make the attack. Have I now "acted" during combat and, therefore, am no longer flat-footed?
seems legit to me.
No, you're still flatfooted.
AoOs aren't actions.
And if they intended an AoO to cause Combat Reflexes to purge the flatfooted condition from you, they would have just added a few words to the text.
But, have fun using Combat Reflexes and a bag full of rats as a poor man's Uncanny Dodge if you find a DM who agrees with you.
No, you're still flatfooted.
AoOs aren't actions.
And if they intended an AoO to cause Combat Reflexes to purge the flatfooted condition from you, they would have just added a few words to the text.
But, have fun using Combat Reflexes and a bag full of rats as a poor man's Uncanny Dodge if you find a DM who agrees with you.
I have to agree although I don't like it. Seems to me if I can use my dex for attacks then I should be able to dodge attacks as well. but...
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act [b](specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order[b]), you are flat-footed.
The book rarly goes into specifics like this so when it does I'm inclined to listen.
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after reading over AoO I would say you cant even do one until you have acted.
The rules would appear to disagree with you.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
According to James Jacobs, an AoO is an action.
If you have Uncanny Dodge you are not flatfooted, ever.
Combat reflexes allows you to make AoO while flat-footed. But that's it, it doesn't give you your Dex back or ends flat-footed. Otherwise it would say that.
That seems a bit odd, but think about it that way: You've honed your reflexes to exploit openings. Someone provokes AoO from you and your muscle memory kicks in and you stab him. However you're still in those few seconds where you think "Huh? What's going on?", and don't dodge as well.
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I guess technically, according to strict RAW, Combat Reflexes doesn't help you here, since Flat-Footed cares about your turn. But you have to lock up common sense in a small dark room to make that work.
Personally I'd be open to the alternative: if an enemy is clumsy enough to provoke an AoO against you too soon, you can put down your foot.
The bag of rats on the other hand, I wouldn't let that work; you aren't "ready" to dump a bag until you aren't flat-footed anymore.
Another party member might pinch you or throw a bunny at you to "activate" you, but as a DM I'd charge a Standard Action for that. I think that might be a meaningful tactical option: sacrifice your action during the surprise round to make sure another party member isn't easy prey. Or maybe this is subtly broken. Something to think about.
I'm not sure why a bag of rats would help with anything... is that a joke I just don't get?
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Consider the scenario: your party is attacked by a group with a crossbow wielding rogue, and you are last in the initiative order.
Now, he doesn't come close enough to provoke an AoO, so he hits you with a sneak attack. Ouch.
Now change the scenario: You have a manservant who happens to be carrying (for reasons unknown) a bag full of rats. He managed to get a higher initiative than the bad guys. On his turn, he unleashes the rats. The rats scurry by you, provoking an attack of opportunity. You skewer one, and are no longer flat footed. The rogue still hits you with a crossbow, but no longer gets sneak attack.
It's a thought experiment designed to highlight an odd consequence of allowing AoO to negate flat-footedness. Personally I find it convincing enough -- an enemy provoking an AoO shouldn't somehow help you out defensively.
(There used to be a similar but more broken exploit using Great Cleave and Combat Reflexes -- when the rats run by you, you kill them all with AoO, then cleave onto the guy your actually fighting. It allowed you to get your Dex modifier in extra attacks per round, which is clearly ridiculous but allowed by the RAW. So a lot of us would recognise 'bag of rats' as an allusion to this type of rules abuse.)
According to James Jacobs, an AoO is an action.
Hmmm, by that ruling, staggered creatures can not make attacks of opportunity. (Or perhaps they could, but that would be the only action they could take every round.) Although, it is still very vague...
Thanks starwed for the explanation. Had never heard that before.
According to James Jacobs, an AoO is an action.Hmmm, by that ruling, staggered creatures can not make attacks of opportunity. (Or perhaps they could, but that would be the only action they could take every round.) Although, it is still very vague...
My read of James's take on "AoOs are acting, therefore they are an action" puts them as somewhere between a No Action and an Immediate Action - if you are capable of acting in any way, you can take AoOs. So the Staggered condition would not restrict you.
I am going to have to disagree with James. An AoO is not an action by the game definition which is what gets rid of the flat-footed condition.
In the section that discussed being flat-footed they also emphasize "specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order", to show intent. The idea is that before you take an action you are flat-footed. AoO is an act, but it is not an action(game term). The two are often synonymous, but not always.
As an example if I charge across the battlefield and try to trip someone I can provoke the charge's movement, and for the trip if I don't have the proper feats. Charging is one action that allows you to run and attack, but within that one action I have committed more than one act.
Normally you can't act or commit to any actions, but combat reflexes and uncanny dodge allow you to make an AoO while still flat-footed, but due to the verbage above saying you are flat-footed until your first regular turn you are still flat-footed.
Note that both abilities point out that you are flat-footed, and the neither removes the flat-footed condition.
I'm not sure why a bag of rats would help with anything... is that a joke I just don't get?
Well, it was a reference to the old 3.0 cleave feat cheese of using a bag of rats. You'd AoO a rat scampering around and then cleave into the guy you really wanted to hit; rinse and repeat till you run out of AoOs.
Imagine walking around w/ a semi open bag of holding filled with rats, so as you're walking they just keep running out, providing you with AoOs? Or you open the bag slightly before entering a room. Something like that.
Ultimately, I just meant abusing such a ruling to take AoOs and effectively gain Uncanny Dodge. Having a high initiative ally purposefully move past you to provoke an AoO tap on the shoulder accomplishes the same thing less reliably.
According to James Jacobs, an AoO is an action.
Thankfully, James is not a "rules guy." That's his opinion. It's wrong, but he's entitled to it. AoOs are not actions. Not everything you do in the game is an action.
According to James Jacobs, an AoO is an action.Thankfully, James is not a "rules guy." That's his opinion. It's wrong, but he's entitled to it. AoOs are not actions. Not everything you do in the game is an action.
He's a dev. He's a dev for this game. He's the Creative Director. Thus, unless his post is contradicted by a FAQ or the RAW, he's right.
Now, certainly you can say in your game you don't play like that, and that's fine.
But even tho a AOO is a action, it does not nessesarily kick you out of being flatfooted as the rules say " At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. "
Note "specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order". Thus, even tho you have acted by doing a AOO, "your first regular turn in the initiative order" has not come up. Yes, you have acted, but it isn't "your first regular turn in the initiative order". Thus, unless you have Uncanny Dodge, you are still flat-footed.
According to James Jacobs, an AoO is an action.Thankfully, James is not a "rules guy." That's his opinion. It's wrong, but he's entitled to it. AoOs are not actions. Not everything you do in the game is an action.He's a dev. He's a dev for this game. He's the Creative Director. Thus, unless his post is contradicted by a FAQ or the RAW, he's right.
Now, certainly you can say in your game you don't play like that, and that's fine.
But even tho a AOO is a action, it does not nessesarily kick you out of being flatfooted as the rules say " At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. "
Note "specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order". Thus, even tho you have acted by doing a AOO, "your first regular turn in the initiative order" has not come up. Yes, you have acted, but it isn't "your first regular turn in the initiative order". Thus, unless you have Uncanny Dodge, you are still flat-footed.
That is incorrect. The only people who can make rules are the rules team. James is in charge of Golarion. He has even said himself that he does not make the rules on multiple occasions. .
Another point is that unless it is in FAQ or Errata form the ruling is still not official, but since the rules teams makes the rules as a collective it is a good idea to take what any of them say as an the correct interpretation if they answer a question.I am not saying James does not know the rules. I am sure he is right a lot more than he is wrong, but his statements are never any more official answers than ours are.
Actually, I am a developer.
The terminoligy between pen and paper RPGs and videogames is not 100% accurate in their crossover.
For tabletop RPG publishing, a "developer" (or "dev") is a person who takes a text turnover from a freelancer or designer and then polishes it up—he/she makes sure the rules work in the context of the story, and that the story works in the context of the rules. The developer is a sort of bridge between design and editorial—since designers don't necessarily have strong editorial skills and editors don't necessarily have strong design skills, the developer's job is to help facilitate the transition of a designed document to an edited one.
The term you're looking for is "designer." The designers at Paizo (Jason's the lead designer) are the ones who make the rules, check freelancer design of rules, and otherwise handle the raw creation and maintenance of rules-related content.
And when I post things here, folks tend to assume I'm posting from the standpoint of a "near top rules expert," which I'm not. There's LOTS of folks better at the rules than me on these boards, and when I post to rules-heavy arguments, those posts tend to seem to do more damage than help as the combination of other players who know the rules better than me AND other players who THINK they know the rules better than they actually do get all worked up.