Why woudln't they stack? I see no reason for them to NOT stack.
Check - sorry if I came off as hostile :) I was only trying to be short and direct :)
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Oh, no, I did see it that way.
You see, unlike bonuses, penalty reductions appear to stack, as far as I know.
I want to be sure if this is the precedent.
Also, would Quick Learner, and Arms Master stack, to reduce all nonproficiency penalties?
Do the Sargavan Guard, and Armor Expert traits stack in their reduction of armor check penalties?
A point could be made that both give trait bonuses. But as they both lower penalties rather than give an actual bonus, it should work.
Also, would Quick Learner, and Arms Master stack, to reduce all nonproficiency penalties?
Technically.... no.
"the non-proficiency penalty decreases by 2 (to a –2 penalty)""You take a –2 penalty on attack rolls made with weapons with which you are not proficient instead of the normal –4"
One gives you -2 instead of -4, and the other decreases to -2. So you end up at -2 either way. But that's only with a very literal reading; really they should stack.
Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a “trait” bonus. Trait bonuses do not stack—they're intended to give player characters a slight edge, not a secret backdoor way to focus all of a character's traits on one type of bonus and thus gain an unseemly advantage. It's certainly possible, for example, that somewhere down the line, a “Courageous” trait might be on the list of dwarf race traits, but just because this trait is on both the dwarf race traits list and the basic combat traits list doesn't mean you're any more brave if you choose both versions than if you choose only one.
I wouldn't allow them to stack. Traits are not supposed to stack, by the plain text of the rules in the APG. And yes, these are bonuses. Anything that reduces penalties is a bonus.
Anything that reduces penalties is a bonus.
I see your point, but must disagree. If a penalty reduction is always a bonus, you could end up with an actual, +1 bonus simply by stacking ever more penalty-reductions. Have a -1 penalty, reduce that penalty by two: et voilá: a bonus!
A penalty reduction is a penalty reduction, and those have no types that I'm aware of. It is not a bonus.
Anything that reduces penalties is a bonus.I see your point, but must disagree. If a penalty reduction is always a bonus, you could end up with an actual, +1 bonus simply by stacking ever more penalty-reductions. Have a -1 penalty, reduce that penalty by two: et voilá: a bonus!
A penalty reduction is a penalty reduction, and those have no types that I'm aware of. It is not a bonus.
I understand your position. Do you have any rules text for it? I can't find anything that says either way.
Either way, while it may not be RAW, by the written text of the APG it is most definately RAI for traits not to stack.
Do you have any rules text for it?
No, none. I guess we're both arguing from logic and extrapolation, which definitely doesn't always work with Pathfinder rules.
by the written text of the APG it is most definately RAI for traits not to stack.
I agree. But I still say Sargavan Guard and Armor Expert should, and indeed do stack.