I'm playing a Rogue/Alchemist (future Master Spy) in Kingmaker and I'm very new to PF, so I'm trying to get a few ideas. We're only about halfway through the first book, but I've never played the "party face" before. Being new to this, I'd love to hear some creative ideas and uses for my skills.
Kitsune (Fast Shifter racial trait)
25 point buy
STR-8, DEX-16, CON-10, INT-16, WIS-10, CHA-18
Kitsune Trickster Rogue 2/Vivisectionist Alchemist 1
Feats: Realistic Likeness & Iron Will (required for Master Spy)
(I'm planning to take Fox Shape at lvl 5 and Deceitful at lvl 7)
Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
Skills:
13 Bluff, Disguise, & Diplomacy (Kitsune's Guile helped)
Can fill a lot of roles: Linguistics, Disable Device, Use Magic Device, Craft Alchemy, Kn Nature, Kn Local, Spellcraft, and generally stealthy and perceptive.
And now I've begun to brew potions and alchemical materials.
Generally, I've been handling the diplomacy for the party since most of the other players used Charisma as their dump stat. However, I don't just want to be the "diplomatic one." I want to establish a network of informants and spies, and I want to be useful as an infiltrator and assassin.
Our party recently raided and decimated the Thorn River Camp - taking several bandits for questioning. I think I've been roleplaying interrogations pretty well so far. I studied techniques and she's been using mostly non-tortuous methods (sensory deprivation, lies, good cop/bad cop, disguising as a co-captive, etc). And I flipped a couple of bandits to our side. I want to send one of them to the Stag Lord's camp as a spy, but I don't know if I can trust him yet.
Also, we recently wiped out the mites and rescued Mikmek, but we haven't returned the statue yet. I know about the tribe's feelings towards Tartuk, and we'll probably have to deal with him first. However, afterward, I'd like to supplant their chieftain and instill Mikmek in his place, essentially ensuring his tribe's loyalty. The party seems to want to use the kobolds to mine for us. When we found the gold mine, I drafted a title to the mine at the behest of our deep gnome.
Basically, I've been running the messaging, lying and controlling enemies, and sneak attacking enemies.
So, what I'm really looking for is a few tips. What can I do with my skills that I might not know? How can I better prepare my character for the future? What alchemical discoveries might be useful to a spy? What extracts might be useful too?
How would you play a spy in Kingmaker?
Have you considered putting a bit more in wisdom for Will saves and sense motive?
As for RP, I suggest going Micheal Westen, from Burn Notice.
Being a burned spy, is a perfect reason for a former goverment/organization spy to go adventuring.
Also, awesome show.
I have Iron Will to add a few points to my Will save and my Sense Motive is actually decently high (Kitsune's Guile is a beautiful thing). And once I'm a Master Spy, I'll actually have a few tricks against mind-affecting magic and a higher Will save as well as adding my class level to Sense Motive too.
Currently, my saves are FORT +2, REFLEX +8, and WILL +2. My Sense Motive is +9 at lvl3 without any additional points in Wisdom.
I've never seen Burn Notice. I'll have to check it out. Currently I'm playing my character as a flighty/free-loving/prankster Kitsune around those she trusts and a serious/deceptive treat to those she doesn't. My previous character was killed, and this character was her only friend and her partner who came to mourn her friend and got caught up in the intrigue. (But I'm still developing her character and eventually she'll need a better reason to be in the Stolen Lands).
Well, if you use a torrent provider, you can get it here.
Oh, I have Netflix and it seems to be on there.
Spy, with adventuring party, out doing good.
Seriously, that is what I imagine an adventuring group, with spies is like.
I'm CN, so I'm not necessarily doing "good." I'm not evil, but I tend to be a little self-serving and free-spirited unless something is in the interest of a loyal companion (like many Kitsunes, she values loyalty). The good news is that there is wealth and power to be had in the Stolen Lands, and those both intrigue my character. Also, she just really loves the party.
Honestly, I'm having a hard time staying on the border between good and evil. Some of my party tortured and killed a kobold prisoner when I was leaving him sensory deprived and disguising myself. And our deep gnome wants to enslave the kobolds since he sees them as a race of evil slavers.
I'm having to walk a pretty thin line.
Bump.
Are there creative ways to use disguise, bluff, sense motive, or diplomacy? I've heard you can use bluff to feint, but it seems to take forever.
Like I said, I'm still new.
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Have you considered putting a bit more in wisdom for Will saves and sense motive?
As for RP, I suggest going Micheal Westen, from Burn Notice.
Being a burned spy, is a perfect reason for a former goverment/organization spy to go adventuring.
Also, awesome show.
He would make a very poor spy. Everybody will notice and remember him.
The best spies are the janitor, butler and gardener. Low profile people that tend to be ignored.
Bump.
Are there creative ways to use disguise, bluff, sense motive, or diplomacy? I've heard you can use bluff to feint, but it seems to take forever.
Like I said, I'm still new.
Feint only works well in combat with Improved Feint which turns the bluff into a move action.
In my current campaign our rogue uses bluff quite effectively.
In combat he usually says something to the effect of "Is your shoelace untied?" which is followed by a sneak attack since dex bonus is negated.Out of combat, Disguise and Diplomacy are great for bypassing guards and getting into places you might not be able to without mass killings and alarms and such.
combined with Bluff you can RP charm people and take advantage of them.
That's sort of how I've been playing her. She's been able to flip bandits and control situations. Because we're building a kingdom, I've already begun building contacts and informants who are feeding me information while I play double in a lot of situations. I actually spied on the northern bandit camp before we leveled it.
In combat, I'm less helpful. Flanking hasn't been hard, though, because we captured and trained some wolves to use as guards and flanking buddies. And, in general, I haven't had a lot of trouble sneaking up on enemies. I'm hoping that being an alchemist will give me an edge with that too.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Being a Spy For Fun and Profit:
First, you really need to talk to your GM alone. He needs to be able to understand what you want to do and he should be able to help you flesh it out further. He also needs to be able to craft situations for you, and create opportunities for your character. You may want to keep what you talk to him about from the other players as well.
A good spy knows that the less those close to him knows about what he does, the safer they are. This follows the whole "need to know" concept. If your party members don't need to know about your abilities, don't tell them. They also don't need to know you are spying on other nations until you have useful information. This is mostly going to give them plausible deniability, but it could also keep their lives out of danger. You are also safer this way, because there are ways for someone to learn about you through your friends.
Being a spy often means you are going to have to put yourself into dangerous situations. This means you need to have a plan every time you decide to use your skills. If you are going in alone, know your exits and have a clear plan on what dangers to look for. As soon as you see one of those dangers, get out. If you know what enemies you are going to face, know their weaknesses and plan on exploiting them. Weaknesses could mean vices, secrets, or personality flaws. A dragon, for example, is very prideful and greedy, while a gnoll is superstitious. Lastly, carry more tools then you need. You never know when the right holy symbol, magic item, or alchemical item will save your tail.
Always have a goal. If you just walk into an enemies lair with no clear goal, you are already dead. Goals can range from mapping out the lair to destroying enemy operations. Goals are quotas, and so if you can't complete one don't be hard on yourself about it. A failed mission that didn't see an agent death will still bring in information.
Allies are tools, so use them. You don't have to tell them the truth about your requests, but they shouldn't feel like they are being abused. Allies appreciate it, and work better, if they have some idea of what is going on, and really love it if they think it was their idea. Don't forget to reward them for their help as well.
Allies can be turned against you, so know how to take them out. This might be a sad truth, but it is one you can't afford to ignore. Know all of your friend's weaknesses and don't let them know any of yours. In fact, let them discover a couple of false weaknesses.
Have a safe house only you know about. When things go horribly wrong you can always hole up here and let things blow over.
Have an agenda, know what you want, and make short term, medium term, and long term goals.
Last of all, have fun with it!
The kitsune tails feat can be very helpful/
SNIP
Thanks for this! I've actually been doing a lot of this already. Currently, we're still a very low level (level 3), so I'm not able to do much on my own yet. And, honestly, our GM has never had anyone play the role I'm playing before. He's never had a spy. Luckily, he doesn't have to worry about me turning on the party unless they turn on me.
I'm trying to keep secrets and be mysterious, but at the same time I don't want to lead anyone to suspicion. Our group has a well-known history of inner party strife. In fact, they've played Kingmaker twice before and they've never gotten past the first half of the first book due to infighting. I'm trying to avoid that.
Out of curiosity, what extracts or skills might be useful for me as a spy? I've never used spells before, so I'm just guessing right now.
Currently, at level-1 Alchemist, I have:
* Polypurpose Panacea (incredibly useful if I take infusion and slip it into someone's drink)
* Vocal Alteration
* Disguise Self (although my disguise is insanely high with Realistic Likeness anyway)
* Cure Light Wounds
* Shield
* Identify
* Reduce Person
The kitsune tails feat can be very helpful/
It definitely can, but I have to take Iron Will and Deceitful in order to be a Master Spy. Also, Realistic Likeness was a no brainer (+10 disguise to mimic individuals I've met). And I think Fox Shape will be an incredibly helpful "oh crap!" button in case I get caught or need to track.
LOL! I really like the kitsune feats. I am playing a 2nd level martial artist/4th level fire wizard in the Jade Regent. He is a lot of fun.
LOL! I really like the kitsune feats. I am playing a 2nd level martial artist/4th level fire wizard in the Jade Regent. He is a lot of fun.
Right? I'm shocked that my GM let me take Realistic Likeness, because my disguise is already ungodly. After the Thorn River Camp, I rolled to look/act like Kressle and rolled a nat 20 (20+13+10 = 43 disguise). He goes, "So...you are Kressle." I died laughing. That poor bandit didn't know what hit him.
Bump
Any other opinions or critiques? I hate to keep stressing this, but I'm new, so I don't know a lot about the mechanics of playing a sneaky/deceptive characters.
Also, extracts...this is my first "caster." Oh, and I have no idea what discoveries might be useful for me.
Bump again.
I think I've decided to take the Tumor Familiar Discovery as my first discovery with the House Centipede as my familiar. It's hard to pass up all the positives of the skill bonuses, a stealthy companion, and the daze poison (which I can hopefully extract and use).