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I will be playing in CotCT soon and I know it is a ways off but I was interested in having my character redeem and romance Laori.
My character is a half-elven Mountebank who if nothing else hopes to remove some evil from the world if he can't add some good before his soul comes due.
I had thought that by helping Laori it might reflect and influence his hopeful freedom from Mephistopheles.
Welcome to the club!
I know of very few groups that don't have at least one PC who tries to redeem/romance her.
Disturbingly enough, in our game it was my 10-year-old son who decided that such a sadistic psychopath would be 'a cool girlfriend' because they could desecrate the dead together. It was the paladin who tried to redeem her.
It's a long path, though -- we're in the final module (Crown of Fangs), she's been rejected by Zon Kuthon, and she is torn between Atonement and staying with the party. Lots of fun to roleplay.
Dramatic stuff!
Welcome to the club!
I know of very few groups that don't have at least one PC who tries to redeem/romance her.
Disturbingly enough, in our game it was my 10-year-old son who decided that such a sadistic psychopath would be 'a cool girlfriend' because they could desecrate the dead together. It was the paladin who tried to redeem her.
It's a long path, though -- we're in the final module (Crown of Fangs), she's been rejected by Zon Kuthon, and she is torn between Atonement and staying with the party. Lots of fun to roleplay.
Dramatic stuff!
I worry about your son's future prospects ;) Just kidding.
I guess one good question would be who would be a good replacement for Zon-Kuthon?
The bard of Shelyn is (needless to say) trying to push her to Shelyn, and Shelyn's obviously interested.
But Laori is NOT.
She needs someone full of lust and sadism.
Calistria?
P.S. Oh, don't worry. We have ruthlessly corrupted my son already. I'm very proud. My favorite moment was when the school psychologist was doing a standard evaluation on him (yes, we have the luxury of being in a relatively well-off school district that does such things), and called us with "great concern" about his "dark writing".
She'd handed him a picture of a car crash and a tornado hitting a town and asked him to write short stories about each picture. They were sidesplitting! "There were no survivors on that dark, dark, day."
We had to meet with the principal about the stories, and the moment he saw the pictures he started laughing so hard he was banging his head on the table. "What do expect a 10-year-old boy to write about with pictures like THIS?!?!" was his reaction. The psychologist agreed that perhaps the pictures were a bit... inappropriate...
P.P.S. My wife's favorite moment? We were at Disneyland watching a live Peter Pan presentation, and the pirates fired their cannons at Peter. The narrator asked, "Oh, my! How do we know that Peter wasn't hit by a cannonball?" My son dutifully raised his hand. When she called on him, he replied, straight-faced, "There's no blood raining from the sky."
I LOVE Disneyland! She just nodded and said, "I supposed that's relevant..." and moved on to the next kid...
P.P.P.S. For those of you about to call Child Protective Services, he really is a loving kid, loves animals, and plays wonderfully well with smaller kids. He just has an absolutely twisted sense of humor from growing up with a dad who made him watch the entire Monty Python collection by the time he was 8...
Objection from the bard: She is not "pushing" anyone towards anything, and to expect Laori to embrace Shelyn would be silly.
She is just telling Laori that she (and Shelyn) are there for her.
Your son makes me laugh. I think I like this boy. If I had a child I would insist they play together. Got to have those good influences right? ;)
I had been thinking of Calistria. I also need to look into the Emyreal Lords.
Gods stuff aside, how would one approach her on the matter? Not immediately rejecting Zon-Kuthon would probably be a good start.
Well, due to the 'delicate' age involved, she was far more into 'S' than 'M', and he was really tired of traveling with a paladin who kept him from having any 'fun' with defeated enemies. So whenever the party wanted to investigate more than one angle, he'd suggest that the two of them go off, while the other four party members do the 'more dangerous stuff'.
And woe betide anyone who fell to those two!
He was very enthusiastic about punishing criminals. I had her refrain from harming innocents within his sight. So I had to play her a bit out of character when he was in the room, but, being 10, he'd wander off and I'd get to creep out the rest of the party with her. Fun fun!
In a more adult setting where you can really cut loose, you have to remember that Laori isn't just a follower of Zon Kuthon; she really ENJOYS the pain she inflicts, and the pain she receives. As the GM playing her, I felt she'd feel a kinship with any character who followed along similar lines. Focus on inflicting painful revenge on the deserving. As long as it's 'deserving', you can probably stay away from the big bad 'E' on your alignment sheet, but you'll keep her interested.
It was actually a lot of fun for me -- Laori spent a lot of time with the paladin, arguing about the need for pain vs. the need for justice, and they had a LOOOOOONG negotiation about exactly what she was allowed to do when she was in his presence or working with him, and, being LE, she agreed to and stuck to the bargain. But she had no interest in him.
The tiefling warlord, on the other hand, was already bristling at the paladin stifling his "creativity" when it came to punishments, so Laori was a natural outlet for him, and she felt an immediate kinship.
Be wary of the path, however. Your GM might well have you as a follower of Zon Kuthon before long -- just depends on whether there's an 'N' or an 'L' in front of that 'E'.
My guy will definitely be a punishing the guilty is o.k. kind of guy.
Try to focus on the neutral I guess, at first.
One of the things I had thought to have him say or imply is that his favorite thing about dark priests is that they have the option to pick new paths in life.
The Paladin totally ruined my fun with Laori. I was sure with her personality I was going to keep the party going for a bit, and have the Bard and Rogue hitting on her awhile (at least until she openly admitted her likes). But he had to be overwhelmingly paranoid that day, and detected evil right away. The Bard and Rogue then became cautious, and a little creeped. *sigh*
Next time they meet her, she'll have made cookies for them!
The Paladin totally ruined my fun with Laori. I was sure with her personality I was going to keep the party going for a bit, and have the Bard and Rogue hitting on her awhile (at least until she openly admitted her likes). But he had to be overwhelmingly paranoid that day, and detected evil right away. The Bard and Rogue then became cautious, and a little creeped. *sigh*
Next time they meet her, she'll have made cookies for them!
Just so long as she remembers the chocolate chips and leaves out the metal filings ;)
How opposed would Laori be to Shelyn?
She's sure as heck not going to convert to Shelyn! You should read up on Shelyn's history with Zon Kuthon; she is trying to restore him to his former state. He pretends he doesn't care, but depending on the writeups, some say that followers of Zon Kuthon will not harm clerics of Shelyn.
But Shelyn's all about enduring love. You'd have a hard time figuring out how to fit exquisite pain into that picture; that's much more of a Calistria/lust kind of thing.
If you're asking, "Could Laori go for a Shelynite?", I'm thinking the Shelynite would have to be a pretty crappy worshipper of Shelyn to attract Laori's attention. You're looking for someone more pain-oriented.
But Laori and our bard are very fond of each other; there's nothing to prevent Laori from being good friends with a worshipper of Shelyn. Our bard considers it her duty to be loyal and true to Laori, and show her that there are paths other than pain, but to let Laori make her own choices. She's saved Laori's life on more than one occasion, and convinced the paladin that he needs to protect Laori as well, so I would consider them great friends. It's just if you try to get to 'more than friends' that there's a problem.
I figured that.
So be a friend, show through action that there are other paths, and for him, use himself as an example of what locking yourself into a dark path looks like.
Your statements may be taken to imply there are no worshipers of Shelyn who are also into BDSM. As I happen to be good friends with a couple in the real world who love each other deeply who are also complete freaks (in that way), I would say that there very likely are Shelyn worshipers who are into BDSM, or at the very least, would be willing to partake in such a relationship with a partner they loved.
Also consider intent. Do they want to redeem/romance because they really want to save Laori, or just because they want the cool girlfriend who was rescued by the power of the magic hotdog? Laori could probably sniff that out fairly quickly.
Gee fella. If you just said that you want to bone me I wouldn't mind at all, but the whole 'nice guy who pretends to be my friend because he wants to bone me' is really a turn-off.
Also consider intent. Do they want to redeem/romance because they really want to save Laori, or just because they want the cool girlfriend who was rescued by the power of the magic hotdog? Laori could probably sniff that out fairly quickly.
Gee fella. If you just said that you want to bone me I wouldn't mind at all, but the whole 'nice guy who pretends to be my friend because he wants to bone me' is really a turn-off.
It's a matter of genuinely wanting to save her and romance her not just a cool girlfriend.
Think a paragon Jack relationship not a renegade Jack relationship. Saved by "The Magic Hotdog" is not my play style.
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Your statements may be taken to imply there are no worshipers of Shelyn who are also into BDSM. As I happen to be good friends with a couple in the real world who love each other deeply who are also complete freaks (in that way), I would say that there very likely are Shelyn worshipers who are into BDSM, or at the very least, would be willing to partake in such a relationship with a partner they loved.
Some quick thoughts on this, and I admit this is just my personal take on Shelyn, Zonkey Kong, and Laori in particular:
Shelyn wouldn't just be accepting of the BDSM crowd, it is absolutely critical that she takes them in and guides them. The thing about the real life crowd is that they're very much about safety and caring about the other person. They have a ton of rules in place for a reason. Shelyn would be all about encouraging and reinforcing that.
If someone has those desires, Shelyn says "No, you're okay. There's nothing wrong with you. But here's what you need to do..." She and her crowd lead such folks towards healthy outlets. Remember, roses have thorns.
The problem arises when you have a place or culture where Shelyn's(or her contemporaries') efforts are stymied. In some restrictive cultures where such practices are seen as severe taboos and stigmatized, people with those leanings have a much harder time getting the proper guidance they need. The same thing goes for dangerously "anything goes" cultures where Shelyn's wisdom is scorned for different reasons.
In places like that, where those folks feel like horrible outcasts and are riddled with guilt, guys like Zon-Kuthon have free reign to swoop right in and say, "Hey, you're okay. There's nothing wrong with you. Let's have some fun...." He starts them off small, doing things that may be innocent enough. But things go downhill from there once he has the hooks in you. Before you know it, nothing is forbidden.
Shelyn would keep such practices as being about love and trust. Zon-Kuthon twists it all around, horribly so. Remember that he's Shelyn gone wrong, that he's a dark, broken reflection, and the twisted parallels really start cropping up. I wouldn't oversimplify it as them being the "Goofus and Gallant of romantic/sexual ethics", but they're in that ballpark.
In our campaign, Laori's past was pretty much spelled out to be one of those souls that slipped through the cracks. A lost soul, and a Forlorn elf at that, that didn't have the proper support and teaching Shelyn's church would have provided. In her eyes, Zon-Kuthon's church was the first group to take her in and truly accept her for what she was and what she felt, and so she's been in love with and devoted to ZK ever since.
Personally, I don't think the average Kuthonite hates Shelyn or Shelynites. Quite the contrary, they love them. But that love is all twisted and wrong. It's possessive, it's unhealthy and poisonous, and it ain't really SSC. They want to share their love, as they understand it, with the Shelyn crowd, to wake them up to the world as it truly is(in their eyes). Shelyn isn't an enemy to be hated, she's a beautiful, misguided innocent. She's the ultimate prize. She's the one they cut and craft their wonders for, so that they can show them to her and show her true beauty.
And Shelynites love the Kuthonites. They keep reaching out to them, keep trying to bring them and their goddess' brother back from the hell they've consigned themselves to. Zon-Kuthon isn't an enemy to be destroyed, but he is incredibly dangerous. He's broken and insane, and he desperately needs help.
And sometimes blood is drawn. When a Kuthonite breaks a Shelynite, whatever joy she may feel likely feels hollow and empty before long. When a Shelynite is forced to kill a Kuthonite, he mourns for a soul that could have been saved, that could have been something truly beautiful if only their lives hadn't gone so horribly wrong.
I just feel like Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon, and their respective faiths, are at their best when they're played off each other, and when the issues between them get stickier than just black vs. white or "Shelynite hates Kuthonite" and vice-versa.
Not to say any of that is a sort of absolute for all Shelynites or Kuthonites, but that seems to breed those most warped, beautiful, painful, tragic, and hopeful stories between them when it's applied generally.
And NPC, if you haven't read any of Mikaze's CoCT campaign notes, it's well worth doing if you can deal with some of the spoilers than inevitably come up. (It's a bunch of GMs discussing how much they love Laori, and how they handled her, but the main gist of the thread is Mikaze's handling of her.)
He did an epic job over the entire campaign, and I ruthlessly stole many ideas, as he was significantly ahead of me the whole way.
The link is here.
Finally, apologies for implying anything of the sort. I think Mikaze has said everything that needs to be said far better than I could, so I'd just take his word as canon and go from there.
Thanks for the help. I'll take a careful look.... Wait, Mikaze's a guy?
Don't get me started -- I was complimenting "her" on an incredibly-cool thread a while back, and one of the other "CoCT Gang" quietly informed me that Mikazi's a guy.
I do want to emphasize "careful" look -- Mikaze definitely wrote for an audience of GMs familiar with the entire story arc, so unless you are a player who can:
(a) Play in character even when you know something's coming, and
(b) Don't mind knowing things in advance,
you want to have heavy blinders on.
But I do love love love Mikaze's tale of Laori, so it's hard for me to say "no".
I actually keep Mikaze's (unfinished) story of Laori saved in a document and show it to people as an example of masterful storytelling and role-playing.
Personally I think Laori is unredeemable. If a sadist actually felt some remorse (or knows that what they are doing is wrong) then I could see that person being possibly redeemed. However, Laori feels no remorse and isn't aware that what she does is bad, and is so far gone that I believe she is hardwired. She is the Ted Bundy of pain and death.
It’s funny, but just because she is happy, bubbly and cute, everyone wants to redeem her. But the fact is, no one thinks about WHAT SHE IS HAPPY ABOUT. Hint: It’s not cookies and sunshine!
If anything, she is a corrupting influence on the rest of the party and the harder the party tries to redeem her, the more they will become corrupted.
Perhaps she could be moved to Calistria, but Calistria is chaotic and Zonites are lawful. I believe that Laori likes to both give and take orders... so I don’t think that’s a good fit.
I just think Laori is who she is and if you change her she’d just be another ditsy cheerleader. She’s so much more interesting being who she is. And if she is unchanged, she is definitely evil.
If the group I’m running for accepts her (I say there is a 50/50 chance, but I’m sure pragmatism will win), I actually see some of the PCs becoming hardcore evil, because they're already easily corruptible.
Those are just my thoughts and everyone has a different opinion (and campaign) on this great campaign.
On an interesting note. The NPC in the CotCT throne I was playing suggested that Loari was actually broken, as in an issue with her hard wiring much like Jason S postulated and so my character (The freed mountebank) planned to greater restoration her and then council her. As he put it he doesn't want to see her soul condemned for a trick of birth. The NPC a cleric of Cayden Caelean concurred.