I would choose 1 class to dip, and put no more than 4 levels into it, total (rest in the main class). Ideally, no more than 1 or 2. Heavy multiclassing is very punishing in PF, you lose out a lot on power.
I would reconsider being a rogue. Viv. Alchemists are very good rogues, combat-wise, and you can use a mutagen for a +4 strength boost. The Beastmorph or Internal Alchemist archetype would go nicely, too. Latter lets you hold your breath stupidly long and fake being dead, which is pretty cool. Alchemists can also sprout arms and tentacle via discoveries, to help with your desire to 2H a weapon but also have a hand free. :)
Ninja gets a trick all about sabotaging things w/o being noticed. Of course, that one costs no ki to use, so a rogue could just as easily pick it up through a talent.
I'm not a fan of critical feats, but I would definitely NOT combine TWF with power attack! And never power attack when you can deal sneak attack damage (unless you only dipped a "rogue" class so you're not adding much sneak damage anyway), the lower chance to hit isn't worth the bonus damage, compared to what the sneak attack is likely to dish out.
So, would you rather be a warrior with a little sneakiness, or a sneak w/ some martial training?
Powerwise it makes no sense to mix Rogue into your Fighter as the weak Sneak Attack Bonus will be negligible to your power attacking with a Scimitar in the hopes of many criticals.
However a Scimitar swinging guy is not what I envision as a commando style character. For this I would prefer Sniper Rogue with a three level dib in Urban Ranger. However, ask you GM how he rules shooting from stealth in regards to Sneak Attacks first.
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Ranger is better than Rogue for this.
Common misconception is that to be a stealthy PC, you must be a Rogue.
This is not true.
In fact, you could go full Barbarian, and nab the Coherent Rage trait to stealth and rage, or just go Urban Barbarian.
Also, with the need for a free hand, the Urban Barbarian combined with the Dervish Dance feat is a mighty combination.
I have explored this similar build before few things to consider... 1st are you using standard criticals or cards. I would max str if you attempt this build and do a weapon master as the progression of att/dmg is insane. I like for a lvl 20 12 levels of weapon master 8 rogue. following key feats.
We use a 25 point heroic build so stats little different I use duel wielding kukri build as it maxes out crits/sneaks and with duel slice str based really scales well. but u can go either way. If you plan on meelee fighter you shoudl put all favorite class into extra hps. also consider doing half elf for the 2 favorite class option.
KUKRI lvl 20 stats Scimitar/Falchion
str 17(19) 13pts str 24 str 17(19)
dex 17 13pts dex 17 dex 14
con 14 5pts con 14 con 14
int 12 2pts int 12 int 14
wis 7 -4pts wis 7 wis 11
cha 7 -4pts cha 7 cha 7
Weapon master gives you at lvl 12 +4 to hit +4 to dmg thats +6 to hit +8 to dmg with the weapon spec/focus especially additive with 2 weapons thats 8 dmg each weapon... Keep in mind bleeding critical stacks with it self so 2d6 bleed every crit 2x kukri with 15-20 crit pretty sick potential. get umd up and cast shield on self for added defensive capacity.
Weapon focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization
Improoved Crit
Critical Focus
Bleeding Critical
Furious focus if single weapon
IF using 2 kukri to duel wield get also following feats
adv base dmg with 24 str is +15dmg main hand + 15dmg offhand with weapon master whiping the duel wield penalty completely as compared to pure fighter also when u flank u get potentially 2 xra sneak dice 8 rog 4d6 dmg + 2 weapon rend another 1d10+ strx1or 1.5forgot. 2 additional shots for the bleed dmg with 15-20 crit range..
two-weapon fighting
improoved 2 weapon fighting
duel slice (full str on both wep)
two weapon rend
Hope this helps or at least gives you some fun ideas to explore
Rogue bring as follows.
1st UMD to be able to use shield wands
2nd Evasion
3rd Uncanny dodge often ovelooked but can be useful
4th better acrobatics for added mobility
minor sneak attack for a -1 bab trade off its -1 bab per 2d6 sneak not that horrible
skill points depending on role in group
If you want do deal two-handed sneak attack, you could as well take the Skulking Slayer (half-orc rogue) archetype. Instead of the trapfinding line, you get some nice maneuvers, a bonus to feint, pass as human, oh and your two-handed sneak attacks deal d8 instead d6.
If you feint as a move action, you could use your humble standard action to make a two-handed power attack sneak attack vital strike...
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Full ninja can get lots of combat feats. This guy's back story is he was a soldier, now in exile from minkai.
20pt buy
Str 20 (levels and belt)
Dex 16
Con 11 (it might be 10)
Int 10
Wis 10
Chr 14
Saves: 7/12/6 fortified drinker
AC 24: 28 when fighting defensively, 33 if he got off SA, and invisibility is often on. [dodge bonuses that also apply to cmd] and he has crane wing.
Feats
Dodge
Medium armor prof
Weapon focus katana
Improved unarmed strike
Crane wing
Skill focus UMD and Escape artist (human racial)
*Crane style from a ninja trick
Tricks
Vanishing trick
Rogue talent offensive defense
Crane style
Climb speed 20
Invisible blade
Wand of true strike
Wand clw
Wand burning hands
Wand fire shurican (2 attacks to SA with)
+2 adamantine katana
Amulet of NA
+ 2 mithral breast plate
Cloak of resistance +2
Ring of protection +1
Ioun stone +1 to hit
Minor gear like wrist sheaths and weapon cords, flour, ,ect.
Edit: spoilerized to reduce size and omg how could I not think of a wand of shield! Thanks.
Rogue is still workable, but the key is the Rogue Talents. Canny Observer would be my must have. The second talent is up in the air.
The other selling point is the huge skill selection.
Ranger/Fighter would also net much of the same results the OP wants. Ranger nets more skill points than barbarian anyway. Personally, 3 lv dip into ranger for Endurance, Favored Terrain, plus the +1 to Will Saves.
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You could consider this? I tried to optimize as much as possible while still tailoring towards the OP.
Human, 20 BP (Favored Class Fighter with bonus to skill points)
STR: 18 (+2 Race)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Level Stat Boosts: 4th: Str, 8th: Str
Traits:
Defender of the Society (If PFS) if not Reactionary
Indomitable Faith
Level:
1st: Fighter: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Power Attack, Skill Focus (Stealth)
2nd: Rogue (Scout): Needed for Class Skills
3rd: Fighter: Dodge
4th: Fighter:
5th: Fighter: Weapon Spec. (Scimitar), Stealthy
6th: Fighter: Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy)
7th: Rogue (Scout): Furious Focus, Rogue Trick: Fast Stealth
8th: Rogue(Scout):
9th: Rogue (Scout): Toughness, Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense
10th: Fighter: Lunge (or anything better you want, unfortunately not much is available but that's not necessarilly a bad thing)
Future levels: Probably all fighter since your main focus is fighter.
Gear (62,000gp): +2 Keen Scimitar (18,315), Mithril Shadowed Full Plate +1 (14,400), +1 Mighty Composite Shortbow [+7] (2,775), Belt of Physical Might +4 (10,000), Ring of Protection +1 (2,000), Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000), Cloak of Protection +2 (4,000), Handy Haversack (2,000), Misc. (6510)[Eventually pick up some Gloves of Dueling]
Level 10 Stats:
HP: 90 (10+ 30(6x5fighter) + 20(5x4rogue)+ 20 Con + 10 Toughness)
AC: 26 (10+ 10 Armor + 2 Dex + 1 Ring + 1 Amulet + 1 Dodge + 1 Trait)
Saves:
Fort: +10 (+ 6 base + 2 Con + 2 Cloak)
Ref: +10 (+ 6 base + 2 Dex + 2 Cloak)
Will: +9 (+3 base + 1 Wis + 2 Cloak + 2 Feat + 1 Trait)
Skills:
Stealth: +28 (10 Ranks + 3 Dex + 6 SF + 4 Stealthy + 5 Armor - 1 ACP)
Acrobatics: +14 (10 Ranks + 3 Dex + 2 Kit -1 ACP)
You have 50 more skill ranks.
Attacks: (DPR factored using formula found HERE)
Single (Will always be charging):
Attack Bonus: +22(+9 BAB, +7 Str, +1 WF, +1 WT +2 Magic, +2 Charge, -0 PA)
Damage: 1d6+24+2d6 SA with 15-20/x2 crit (+10 Str, +9 PA, +2 Magic, +2 WS, +1 WT)
Total DPR: 38.475
Full Attack:
Attack Bonus: +20/+13(+9 BAB, +7 Str, +1 WF, +1 WT, +2 Magic, -0/-3 PA)
Damage: 1d6+24 with 15-20/x2 crit
Total DPR: 50.325
Concept: During levels 1-3 wear light armor to stay stealthy and maintain your movement. Perhaps use a shield if your low AC is a problem. You should also have a +1 weapon by this point and be saving towards your Mithral Full Plate. During levels 4-8 pick up the Mithral Full Plate and make your weapon keen. Improved Critical feats are overrated and you want that 15-20 crit range ASAP. Now you're moving at full speed and able to do Acrobatics in medium armor (hence Mithral Full Plate). At level 9 this build really comes together. You can now charge 60ft. in full-plate taking no penalty to AC due to offensive defense and dealing 2d6 sneak attack damage. As you've stated (with good judgement) your damage comes from the Power Attack not Sneak so this way the sneak is just icing on the cake.
DPR wise, your charge attack will be higher while your full-attack slightly lower than fighters listed on the DPR forums (avg. is around 55 for full-round attack). Your next items should be boots of haste (or have spellcaster haste you) and gloves of dueling as those will greatly increase your DPR.
3 to 4 levels of Urban Barbarian will be way better than Rogue levels for this build.
You did say you wanted to move away from playing Rogues.
Grab a couple or four levels of Urban Barbarian, take an Extra Rage feat and the extra Rage trait and make sure you take the Auspicious Mark Rage Power as well. That will give you some serious versatility when it comes to skill checks.
Then go Scout and Thug archetypes for Rogue. Check out the feats: Bludgeoner, Sap Adept and Sap Master. I think you really might like some of what you can do with all of that.
I ran something similar and he used an Earthbreaker ;)
You can largely use traits to get class skills. Your two base traits and a feat on Additional Traits nets you up to 4 class skills. Or you could just dip. Beastmaster Ranger 1 will not hurt your BAB and will add stealth, acrobatics, and several other class skills to a fighter. Throw in Trapper archetype (they can stack) and you also pick up Disable Device and trapfinding. All from a 1 level dip w/o loss of BAB.
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If I understand correctly aside from whats also been mentioned, what A Brigand also looking to gain out of the rogue class is volume of skill points. It's unlikely he'll have more than a +1 bonus coming in from int, which would mean even with skilled from being human he'd only have four skills per level which is only 48 total after 12 levels, pretty limited if he's looking to make a fighter with some skill depth. 4 levels of rogue grants and additional 24 skill points a 50% increase which gives a lot more room to play around, and he's not really losing a massive amount from his base fighter proficiency.
I get the idea instead of the big stupid fighter, you'd be the medium sized B-student fighter. It's not exactly supremely optimized, but hell neither are most of your average module encounters.
My only firm suggestion for your build is if you want to two weapon fight, pick a single weapon type. Short swords or Kukris work perfectly well for example(Don't get seduced by big weapon dice 1d8 is only 4 and 1d12 is only 6 once reality sets in), being able to apply all your weapon training and weapon focus/specializations to both hands is much more helpful.
I really like the Mobile Fighter archetype w/ a reach weapon. You just need to check with your DM if he'd houserule gloves of duelling to work for you (leaping attack basically is weapon training in all but name, the rate of bonus is the same), they're a really nice item. So nice that if he says no, I'd probably not play a mobile fighter over one that kept weapon training.
Anyway...mobile fighter will eventually let you move and nearly-full-attack (have to forfeit the first attack) at level 11. So grab Whirlwind Attack and dash around hitting nearly every enemy. Get lunge feat to strike at even more foes. Get Dazing Assault to potentially daze every foe you hit. And of course combat reflexes for AoOs when the foes not dazed try to close to melee with you.
With high strength and power attack, you'll have pretty good damage output, along with being good at fighting on the move and having WWA for crowd-clearing.
If I understand correctly aside from whats also been mentioned, what A Brigand also looking to gain out of the rogue class is volume of skill points. It's unlikely he'll have more than a +1 bonus coming in from int, which would mean even with skilled from being human he'd only have four skills per level which is only 48 total after 12 levels, pretty limited if he's looking to make a fighter with some skill depth. 4 levels of rogue grants and additional 24 skill points a 50% increase which gives a lot more room to play around, and he's not really losing a massive amount from his base fighter proficiency.
I get the idea instead of the big stupid fighter, you'd be the medium sized B-student fighter. It's not exactly supremely optimized, but hell neither are most of your average module encounters.
Human with 14 Int and favored class bonus is 5 points per level. Not enough to cover all the thieving or social skills, but certainly enough for stealth, acrobatics, perception...
If he wants more than that for skills, then he'd probably be better off just making a ranger or bard.
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If I understand correctly aside from whats also been mentioned, what A Brigand also looking to gain out of the rogue class is volume of skill points. It's unlikely he'll have more than a +1 bonus coming in from int, which would mean even with skilled from being human he'd only have four skills per level which is only 48 total after 12 levels, pretty limited if he's looking to make a fighter with some skill depth. 4 levels of rogue grants and additional 24 skill points a 50% increase which gives a lot more room to play around, and he's not really losing a massive amount from his base fighter proficiency.
I get the idea instead of the big stupid fighter, you'd be the medium sized B-student fighter. It's not exactly supremely optimized, but hell neither are most of your average module encounters.
Human with 14 Int and favored class bonus is 5 points per level. Not enough to cover all the thieving or social skills, but certainly enough for stealth, acrobatics, perception...
If he wants more than that for skills, then he'd probably be better off just making a ranger or bard.
That would actually be 6 per level, unless he replaced the skilled racial bonus.
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You could consider this? I tried to optimize as much as possible while still tailoring towards the OP.
** spoiler omitted **...
I really like your build and I'll probably steal it for some NPC goodness, scout for SA on the charge is a great way to pull some utility out of the rogue dip. Just one question when you said Belt of Physical Might +4 did you mean +2? As far as I can recall a Belt of Physical Might +4 is 40,000gp standard.
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A dip into Inquisitor may do what you want. I suggest Heretic Inquisitor for added stealth capabilities.
You can choose the Travel domain(or Exploration subdomain) for mobility, or Protection Domain(or Defense subdomain) for added survivability.
This will also help with the Fighter's greatest weakness, Will saves.
You can choose not to worship a deity, if that works better for you, but a free proficiency cannot be beat, if it's the right weapon.
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So, fighter and rogue, nothing else, no matter what?eh... no.
1.) skills. (preferably at least 6/level) In my opinion, light or medium armor goes with this hand in hand.
2.) combat prowess. (good damage output, good survivability)
3.) achieves majority of said damage via consistent methods. (i.e. not circumstantial damage, sneak attack, favored enemy, etc.)
4.) preferably non magical... I like to play the underdog. (ranger casting is fine)
This is pretty much what I'm looking for.
Well putting it in these terms, the Qadiran Sandsnake I posted above has all of them.
1.) He gains a total of 70 skill points. Fighter (2 Class + 1 Int + 1 Favored + 1 Race)x 6 levels = 30. Rogue (8 Class + 1 Int + 1 Race) x 4 Levels = 40.
2.) DPR is listed and he deals slightly less than the optimized fighter which is to be expected. However he still functions well on the battlefield.
3.) All damage is consistent and sneak attack works on charge.
4.) No magic
So a STR based 2 handed trapper ranger. Trapper trades out spells for trapfinding & setting.. if you don't care for it then go for the spells.
I would suggest infiltrator as well, as then you can activate abilities rather than trying to think when some bonuses apply.. it also can give you Lunge at 3rd level.
I think I posted a such a ranger (with a dip into Living Monolith) on the boards somewhere.. check him out, see if that works for you... you might need to adjust his stats a little here or there.
-James
I have actually been looking at an Infiltrator Ranger, either dedicated two hand power attacker or switch hitter. (again).
In any case ,I like the idea, I'm just not exactly sure how to go about it. I do like the loss of Favored Terrains, I often forget about them. I am also not certain how Infiltrator works as far as backstory goes, but I could come up with something via brainstorming.
How can I get Lunge at 3rd level?