I am a newish GM and I was just handling a first level combat between a small pc (goblin) and a tiny foe (poisonous scarlet spider). We were sorta stumped how to handle the combat.
The spider was on him, biting, but not grappling. Still had high AC with dex. Stabbing with a dagger seemed unwise. I ruled he could do a "bull rush" brushing off maneuver, but that only got the spider 5' away, and it moves 30'.
I was thinking there should be some "unarmed combat" variant, where he swats the spider for some nonlethal(?) damage without harming himself. I ended up making up something along this line, but I was wondering if there were official rules for this scenario somewhere.
If you first ignore the combat mechanisms in favour of realism (when not attacking with the dagger), you cannot then turn to the combat mechanisms for a solution.
Just attack with the dagger, and call it swatting.
I am a newish GM and I was just handling a first level combat between a small pc (goblin) and a tiny foe (poisonous scarlet spider). We were sorta stumped how to handle the combat.
The spider was on him, biting, but not grappling. Still had high AC with dex. Stabbing with a dagger seemed unwise. I ruled he could do a "bull rush" brushing off maneuver, but that only got the spider 5' away, and it moves 30'.
I was thinking there should be some "unarmed combat" variant, where he swats the spider for some nonlethal(?) damage without harming himself. I ended up making up something along this line, but I was wondering if there were official rules for this scenario somewhere.
A character/NPC/creature can perform Combat Maneuvers against any sized creature; I can bullrush a tiny spider, trip a brownie, etc. The thing you had to consider between each of the creatures is their size properties. Being a Tiny-size Spider has major benefits to their AC (the dang thing is small and wiry; good luck hitting it), plus having multiple limbs holding its ground, it's more difficult to trip and bull rush it.
In the case of the brownie, it does get small/tiny bonuses, but it does not receive the extra bonuses to trip and bull rush due to it only having two legs instead of the spider, having eight.
If the Spider was biting him, it would still be in its own square; if it was to get into the PC's square, it would have to perform a Grapple check (in which the PC would get an Attack of Opportunity because the spider doesn't have Improved Grapple). Even if the PC was in the same square as the Spider, he can 5' and swing at it with his choice of weapon, if he isn't grappled by the Spider.
Even if he was, he can do an opposed CMB/CMD check to break free, and run away, or he can give it a punch (at non-lethal damage) with a -4 penalty, dealing 1d3 nonlethal, or suffer a -8 penalty, dealing lethal damage instead. (I don't think the minuses are cumulative, and may only be the -4 if the PC is attempting lethal damage.)
If a target is grappled, they are only allowed one attack, and only have access to one limb for attacks (for humanoids, it's an arm; for other creatures with natural weapons, this may include a bite attack).
I would suggest looking over the "Rules of Combat" section in the Core Rulebook so as not to get confused over the general outlook of grappling and combat properties and such.
Hope this helps!
Thanks! These suggestions do help.
I was confusing reality: the spider drops from the ceiling and lands on you before biting...
with game mechanics: the spider is in its own 5' square and attacking with a bite...
which gives the PC clearer options.
If it had been say, a leech instead, the leech would have to grapple and lose its dex. The PC would then have better chances to do some kind of either escape or unarmed strike.
Is it safe to say that with an unarmed attack to a creature grappled onto you... you don't hurt yourself? (Like swatting a mosquito in reality).
Actually dark soul you made a few mistakes there. First tiny creatures do not have 5 foot reach they have to enter a creatures square to bite them.
Secondly grappling no longer puts you in the opponents square.
Edit law not sure where your -4 to hit with a punch is commingle from.
Thanks! These suggestions do help.
I was confusing reality: the spider drops from the ceiling and lands on you before biting...
with game mechanics: the spider is in its own 5' square and attacking with a bite...
which gives the PC clearer options.
If it had been say, a leech instead, the leech would have to grapple and lose its dex. The PC would then have better chances to do some kind of either escape or unarmed strike.
Is it safe to say that with an unarmed attack to a creature grappled onto you... you don't hurt yourself? (Like swatting a mosquito in reality).
The Spider would still have to perform a grapple check in order to attach itself to the PC. If the PC is unaware of the spider, the PC would be considered flat-footed for the case of CMB vs. CMD rolls. If the PC was aware of the spider, he would be allowed an attack of opportunity, as grappling normally provokes attacks of opportunity (whereas if you have the Improved Grapple feat and its upgrades, you do not provoke attacks).
The same concepts would apply to a leech.
The PC would have to either break free with a Strength check or Escape Artist check, or use a one-handed weapon to attack at the spider (the spider would suffer Grapple penalties to its AC).
@ Mojo: Where does it say that a Tiny creature has to occupy the target creature's space in order to attack?
You have a link for the errata regarding this? Otherwise, I guess we houserule that grappling still puts you in the target's square.
Here's the link for the Unarmed Strike, and its relation to penalties.
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You have a link for the errata regarding this? Otherwise, I guess we houserule that grappling still puts you in the target's square.
Here's the link for the Unarmed Strike, and its relation to penalties.
PRD LINK. Tiny and smaller creatures have a Reach of 0.
PRD LINK. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).
PRD LINK. Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
Creatures of size Small or larger will remain adjacent to their target while grappling. While friendlies of this size can move through each other's square, they cannot end their movement in the same square. If this occurs, they are moved to the last legal square. This is why creatures of this size do not occupy the same square while grappling.
Since creatures of size Tiny or smaller have no reach, they would have to move into the targets square to attempt a grapple. Though the rules do not state it, it would make sense that if such small creatures do successfully grapple, they would continue to occupy the same square as the target (because putting them in an adjacent square would nullify the grapple).
Since Pathfinder is written with Small and Medium sizes in mind, certain aspects of the rules start breaking down a bit when you start to involve very small or very large creatures. Sometimes, some rule massaging is needed.
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Eat the tiny creature.
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A tiny creature with no reach has to move into the goblin's square to attack him. It provokes an AoO for doing so (unless the target is flat-footed, as presumably was the case when it dropped on him) so bull-rushing it out of his square has some effect. It doesn't have to grapple to attack or to remain in the square.
Note that the spider threatens the area into which it can make a melee attack - that is, its own square - so it can AoO the goblin if he moves more than 5 feet, attempts a bull rush without supporting feats or takes some other action that provokes.
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What should happen is your buddy grapples it. It cannot AoO because it has 0 reach and your buddy has 5'. It is then forced to be in a square adjacent to your buddy and cannot AoO. You move. It is now completely shut down until your buddy rolls a 1 to maintain the grapple.
Tiny and smaller creatures have abysmal CMDs.
The spider can bite your buddy instead of trying to escape the grapple, until he squashes it or pins it. If he's OK with that, it certainly improves your situation.
What should happen is your buddy grapples it. It cannot AoO because it has 0 reach and your buddy has 5'. It is then forced to be in a square adjacent to your buddy and cannot AoO. You move. It is now completely shut down until your buddy rolls a 1 to maintain the grapple.
Tiny and smaller creatures have abysmal CMDs.
A creature attempting a melee grapple check against another creature still normally provokes an attack of opportunity. (I mean, unless the PC has access to a ranged grapple ability or spell, I don't see how he can avoid the AoO from the spider by grappling through melee except through the Improved Grapple feat.)
You mean CMB; their CMD can actually be quite high. In a RL scenario, the common fly that buzzes around in your room just to tick you off, is the best example of a less than diminutive creature that is almost impossible to get a great grapple with, even if they sit still in a certain spot for a while.
@ Starglim: Yes, it could. If the Spider has a poisonous bite, it wouldn't be a wise move to grapple it, reducing both your AC and Dex bonuses for Reflex saves. It would be best if he instead did a Withdraw action to put the spider's actions onto his terms of combat (double moving 60 feet, negating any possible attacks of opportunity it could have gotten, forcing the spider either into pursuit or just sitting there due to its unintelligent nature).
Spider has no reach. Medium and small creatures grapple at 5'. They never come into the spider's reach. RAW it can't do a thing about it unless there's some hidden clause I'm not aware of.
The PC, heck, anything that has to grapple has to physically reach into the square to grapple the target; saying that the spider cannot make an attack of opportunity from the PC reaching into its square to grab it is ridiculous.
Looking at it in this light, it seems this is something that needs to be errata'd.
Ahh... it seems there really isn't a definitive answer.
Perhaps new combat maneuvers need to be created for creatures of greatly different sizes, such as "Brush off" "Swat" and "Stomp"
I'm still having difficulty visualizing something approximating reality for how a small (or medium) creature attacks a tiny creature sitting on his shoulder.
For comic effect the goblin did try to stab the spider with his dagger. He missed both the spider and himself. But what if he hadn't missed? I can't envision someone stabbing a tiny creature on their shoulder without a huge risk of stabbing themselves.