I'm more curious how a lich, who likely lacked skin, managed an expression.
;)
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Apparently it was the best spell on his list at the time. Frustratingly enough for you, reverse gravity wouldn't have worked either: I had a fly speed. These days it would have been through feats, but back then it was because I wanted to play a character who was 5/8ths god.Last time I saw cloudkill dragged out it was used on my paladin with a necklace of adaptation. The look on the Lich's face was priceless.Ug, I would NEVER target a PALADIN with a spell that offers a save. Especially consider a PC is probably going to have a necklace or life bubble.
Lich: What? A Paladin? Screw that. I'm gonna teleport away, go find some little towns to grind through for EXP, and then come back when I have Reverse Gravity.
Fair enough. I myself would also have some sort of flight on a martial character by that level as well. Which is part of the reason I like to play casters, it's such a mind game of "Well what spells/abilities does he have up?"
Well, for the vain lich, there is always gentle repose. I hear it works better than most skin creams.I'm more curious how a lich, who likely lacked skin, managed an expression.
;)
Well played.
I'm more curious how a lich, who likely lacked skin, managed an expression.
;)
Same way as Xykon did in order of the stick, yes, it's a skull, but he still managed to get across "... Oh, for frack's sake." well enough
@Elamdri: A lot easier to deal with when you have a chime of interruption, I hadn't found one by that point, and was saving up to build my own.
Same way as Xykon did in order of the stick, yes, it's a skull, but he still managed to get across "... Oh, for frack's sake." well enoughI'm more curious how a lich, who likely lacked skin, managed an expression.
;)
Heh.
I think it do to balance you already have 3 wis caster for core dru,clr,rng, 1 int wiz, and 2 cha so I figure it to balance sp it 3 1 3.
...so, what do you do one round later?Fly
Things you will never hear a wizard say:
No problem, we can get across the ravine easy. I'll just cast a Fly spell on each member of the party.
It's only the fourth encounter of the day. Of course I have another Haste spell!
I'll block off the other three entrances with Webs to slow down any flankers while prepping a couple lightning bolts for the main entryway.
Hey, I can counterspell ten disintegrates in a row, keep 'em coming.
Sure, I can direct damage all day. Twenty fireballs? Not a problem. No, no, they aren't signature spells. I can just do that.
I don't need to pick and choose when to cast a particular spell. I've got plenty of slots to go.
Incorps? No worry, I can Empower a ton of magic missiles.
Why would I need to customize my spell list? That's what scrolls, wands and staves are for!
Prepare for a fight? I'm always prepared! Do you think you get to tell the Troll to come back tomorrow because you don't have fire magic right now?
---
Typical sorceror reply to a wizard crowing about his spellbook and specialized spells: "Yeah, I've got a scroll that can do that, too. Which I've had for three levels because you never have to use that spell."
==Aelryinth
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Things you will never hear a wizard say:No problem, we can get across the ravine easy. I'll just cast a Fly spell on each member of the party.
Always carry a scroll of fly for each party member. Make them pay for it. Done.
It's only the fourth encounter of the day. Of course I have another Haste spell!
Not every encounter requires a Haste. (At least, not at the level where you could possibly run out of third level spells).
I'll block off the other three entrances with Webs to slow down any flankers while prepping a couple lightning bolts for the main entryway.
Ew, lightning bolts?
Each one of those could have been a Summon Monster 3 or Stinking Cloud.
Hey, I can counterspell ten disintegrates in a row, keep 'em coming.
If you are dealing with something that can cast disintegrates ten times in a row, why not just use antimagic field?
Sure, I can direct damage all day. Twenty fireballs? Not a problem. No, no, they aren't signature spells. I can just do that.
I don't think I've actually ever prepared a fireball in my entire time playing Wizard. There's just too much good stuff in Spell Level 3 to take for me to bother with Fireballs.
Incorps? No worry, I can Empower a ton of magic missiles.
You got me there. I usually let the cleric handle those while I read a nice thick tome in my lawn chair.
Why would I need to customize my spell list? That's what scrolls, wands and staves are for!
Made by a wizard ;)
Prepare for a fight? I'm always prepared! Do you think you get to tell the Troll to come back tomorrow because you don't have fire magic right now?
Who prepares fire spells? One alchemist fire does the job. Take that son of a gun to negative con and drop one on his sorry arse.
1) And they don't, and you're stuck. Sorc, always prepared.
2)And if every encounter did require Haste, and it might, you're stuck. Sorc, always prepared.
3)Duration of your choice of spells won't work. Secondly, those are offensive spells, not defensive...web does both, and for longer time periods. Sorc, prepped with the best utility spells.
4) Antimagic shell lasts for turns. I have to stop it from disintegrating the rest of the party long enough to kill it, not gimp myself for two hours. This argument carries over into "I can counterspell alllllll day." The wizard runs out of usable spells.
5)When the army comes over the hill and runs around your blocking spells and clusters up, sometimes there's just no substitute.
6)So, if there's no cleric around, you're stuck doing nothing while undead kill you. Mmm. At least they'll find you in a lawn chair.
7)Or made by another sorc with different spells...or a witch...or a bard...maybe a cleric...or by yourself borrowing a Page of Knowledge...
8)You set it on fire, it takes piddling damage, proceeds to rip you apart. Ooops. Fire spells that do damage just might have been a better idea, because there aren't a lot that reduce it to negative con. Sorc, always prepared with fire.
And hey, you were the one talking about terrorizing hamlets. Can't do that unless you can set them on fire!
==Aelryinth
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1) No, THEY are stuck. If the fighter should happen to fall from the cliff and die, the wizard can simply go back to town and get a new one from FighterMart.
2) If you have reached that point and the martial characters don't have boots of speed or mithral full plate of speed, shame on them. Not the wizard.
3) The best defense is a good offense.
4) To be honest, I rarely counterspell, I don't think trading spell for spell is a good strategy. I'd rather use one spell to gimp all your spells. Like Telekinetically grappling the caster.
5) Why would I fireball my own army?
6) Well, then you just pull out a wand of magic missile. Or you murder the party's most useless character in his sleep, go to town and get a cleric from ClericMart. And if ClericMart is out of clerics, you murder whatever new party member you pick up and repeat the process until ClericMart has clerics. Or you just leave. You seem to be under the impression that wizards have to be prepared and fight fair. That's not how wizards roll. Wizards are the kids who get upset when you are winning at a game, throw all the pieces on the floor and go home. Then they come back the next day with a game they're really good at and wipe the floor with you.
7) But...but...but that would involve associating with riff-raff and vagabonds!
8)How is it going to take damage if it's unconscious on the floor? Regeneration prevents it from dying while the regeneration is in effect, not going unconscious. You wait until the Troll is at -10 con and then toss an alchemist fire on his K.O.'d body. 1 Point of fire damage is all you need. Then the fighter Coup de graces.
Aelryinth:
The way regeneration works in PF is that if regen is shut down and if the creature is at or below -con in hitpoints they die one round later...period. You no longer have to do 'real' damage with something like fire or acid to a troll. Hack it apart (to say, -50hps for good measure), then drop a single alchemist fire on it and it dies. No extra damage required.
- Gauss
Imper1um, this has been discussed by James Jacobs. He stated it takes 1 round for the regen to shut off. I believe the wording of regen supports this.
Example:
I hit troll with alchemist's fire and do 2points of damage. It is now at -50hp.
It's next action it regenerates normally.
Next round, it dies because it is at -45hp which is greater than -con.
Yes, this means that a creature with regen can be saved from death in the round between the damage that WILL shut off it's regen and the round it's regen is actually off. If someone cures it that is.
Note: I do not have the bestiary in front of me so I am just going off of memory that a troll has regen 5 (fire or acid). If it is some other number then apply that number of regen.
- Gauss
1) And the adventure ends. Good show for you, I guess.
2)Um, at level 7? I don't think so.
3)And that wasn't good offense, since you didn't have targets...you were blocking avenues of attack. It's akin to fireballing an empty hallway.
4)Which becomes less and less useful as you level up and the foes get bigger, or have higher CMD's. Or they counterspell your TK. Neutralizing anything productive a foe can do is a great action...except the wizard tends to run out of counterspells pretty quick. Of COURSE you don't like doing it...it's not a wizard's strength.
5)Because they aren't your army? Sorry, we aren't talking anyone waving around a Rod of Rulership.
6)The level 1 wand of MM isn't going to save you, you won't have a level 5 wand of Empowered Magic Missile, and you certainly won't have a level 9 Wand of it. $ here. U B hosed.
7)No, it would mean not associating with elitist snobs! You do realize that most of that list has a high Charisma and is fun to party with, right?
8)You misinterpret my point. He has to get it to negative Con in hit points, he doesn't have DD spells, and so how is he going to DO that? The fireball gets it to negative HP AND sets it on fire, which alchemist fire doesn't do enough damage to accomplish. He somehow thinks he's going to get it to negative HP with DD spells...none of which are fire or acid, if he does have them.
Wizards, applying theorycraft to reality and failing since 3.0!
==Aelryinth
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I will say as this degrades into a shroedinger's wizard argument.
Wizard players are more likely to have the right spell. Do they have right spell prepared? If not have they used their bonded item?
Sorcerer players are more likely to be inventive with the spells they have. Do they not have the right spell? Do they have a scroll of it? Can they improvise what they know?
I personally like that Paladins cast their magic through inspiration, and antipaladins through fear.
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1) What part of "Go back to town and get a new fighter" didn't you get? Who ends an adventure because someone's character fell off the cliff. Especially when the person was too stupid to buy a scroll of fly for the wizard to cast on them. That person rerolls, you go back to town and pick them up, and then you go and try again. Ending an adventure because someone died is just silly.
2)If you need a haste EVERY encounter at level 7, something has gone horribly wrong. And it's not you.
3) To be honest, I've never used web because I've never been in a situation where it applies. 99.9% of the time, We're usually fighting some big bad in an open field or huge cavern and there's just not any two points on the map to anchor a web spell. Now that's me adapting my play to my GM.
4)To be honest, In 2 years of roleplaying, I've never seen anyone use counterspells. I'm not even really use how it works to be honest. We've always just figured out how to shut down whatever we're fighting with a single spell or leave and come back.
5) You missed the part where I dominated the General.
6)Like I said, then you just leave, prepare, and come back. Why stick around for a fight you can't win. Like I said, wizards don't play fair. They use every dirty trick available to them.
7) I know, I'm just being confrontational because it's fun.
8) You get it to negative Con in hit points by WAILING on it with a big stick. Regeneration doesn't stop it from going into negative con, it just stops it from dying while the regeneration is in effect. The whole party could gang up on a troll, beat it to unconsciousness, then gang up on it's unconscious body and curb stomp it until it's -100 HP and the troll won't die as long as regeneration is working. But the moment you deal 1 point of fire damage, the troll's regeneration stops working for a round and it dies.
You seem to be under the impression that you need to put a troll into negative con using fire damage and that's emphatically not true. Physical damage alone can put a troll unconscious. Shoot, you don't even need an alchemist fire, you can just use a torch to set the body on fire.
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You need good strength to deal damage (Unless you're a healbot, in which case you are a waste of space, get out of my party)
You need good Con so you can wade into combat and survive to heal the rest of the party after the fight.
I've seen well constructed, well-played healbots be far more effective than clerics who wade into melee, but now I'm curious as to your reasoning ... have any proof and/or anecdotes to share?
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It isn't really about the Cleric wading into melee so much, (in the same sense that a Fighter or Barbarian does), as much as they generally need to be in near the middle in case something does happen, tend to have a lot of Touch, or Close range spells or effects, and also tend to have a fair amount of spells/abilities that target them and offer benefits to everyone within an area (usually 30 or 10ft). This is just as true, and really even more so for Healbot Clerics as it is warpriest Clerics. Healbots nneed to be rather close to the tanks so they can 5ft step and cast, or move to a position quickly and cast inthe same round, need to avoid drawing AoO's for movement, and in some rare cases getting people killed, (Cleric rushed to heal the 1 HP fighter, draws an AoO from a thing with reach, drops, Finishing Cleave drops the guy they where trying to heal, -> TPK, I've seen it happen).
Essentually it is better to do things that prevent damage from taking place in the first place than sitting around and waiting to Cure/Remove it. A combination of party or self buffs, spells that either soak up damage or stop enemies from attacking or having an advantage, using Summon Monster to call more weaker creatures as a wall of bodies between the party and the enemy(s), as it really doesn't matter too much if they take damage, but every hit they take is one the party doesn't, and thus doesn't need to heal, but it does offer a lot more option for flank, cuts off enemies from taking too much terrain advantage, prevents charge, (especially with pounce or grab attacks or the like), and forces them to spread out attacks rather than focus, which also means an after battle Channel Energy can more likely fully heal everyone, rather than either burning half of them or some cure spells on one guy.
This is especially true against creatures that have poison, curse, or disease attacks. Taking them out quickly is a thousand times better than trying to go around and Restore/Remove conditions from multiple characters during, or even afterwards. One spell, Bless, Bull's Str, Shield of Faith, anything that either kills the monster one round fast or helps prevent a hit is essentually a free Cure/Remove/Restore spell, too, or even more than one if it stops the party from all getting poisoned or diseased.
1) The part where 'getting a new rogue and cleric' didn't happen, either. I did say 'party', right?
2) Or you just might be playing through a combat heavy dungeon.
3) Ah, because you don't use the spell, it doesn't apply to you. Okay...
4) And as I noted, Counterspelling is a stupid tactic for wizards, because you have spell variety, not consistency.
5) You missed the part where the level 1 Adept with Prot/Evil neutralized the effect, since it was bloody obvious to the hundreds of eyes on you what you were doing, and it's a DC 15 Sense Motive check to sense the CHarm.
Oh, I see why you missed it. The army killed you. Several hundred missile weapons at one time will do that, and Dominate doesn't outrange much of anything, unlike, say, a fireball from 1000' away.
6) And then they track you or are prepared for a return. The other side doesn't have spellcasters, right? They can't possibly figure out where you are, who you are, and turn the tables, right?
And hey, they're trying to unleash the big bad evil guy, and you just bailed on the attempt to stop them. Good show!
7) Nah, sorcs are fun. wizards are confrontational because they know they aren't fun!
8) Oh, now you need the party you left behind at the cliff because they couldn't fly, AND you're now beating on it with a big stick! heavens, you went from god wizard to inept melee combatant. That's a heck of a transformation for a level 7 wizard trying to beat down a troll with no DD.
Remember, if you brought a party, then the troll gets to bring a party, too! They have their own trolls to worry about, and its just a shame some wizard can't catch them all in an AoE fire spell at the same time...
:)
==Aelryinth
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I've seen well constructed, well-played healbots be far more effective than clerics who wade into melee, but now I'm curious as to your reasoning ... have any proof and/or anecdotes to share?You need good strength to deal damage (Unless you're a healbot, in which case you are a waste of space, get out of my party)
You need good Con so you can wade into combat and survive to heal the rest of the party after the fight.
The problem is that it is impossible to outheal the damage curve in pathfinder. Which makes sense, because if it were possible, then no encounter would be challenging because the healer could outheal the monster.
Thus every encounter is a matter of out DPSing the monster.
You can do this one of two ways:
1: Dealing more damage than the monster. In this sense, the melee cleric really shines. With all the opportunities to buff and summon, you can get your damage as high as a fighter's.
2: Preventing damage. Things like DR through Stoneskin, distributing damage through shield other, and simply preventing damage by making it impossible for the monster to hit you using things like walls or flying above it.
Here are the attack stats of a cleric that I had in one game, note that I always summoned a dire tiger and had a Lillend Azata planar ally.
Final attack Bonus: +25/+25/+20 (+9 BAB, +9 Str, +4 Divine Power, + 3 Magic Weapon, +1 Haste, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Bardic Performance (Azata) -3 Power Attack, -1 Size)
Final Damage: 2d6 + 20(+9 Str, +3 Weapon, +6 Power Attack, +2 Bardic Performance) + 2d6 Holy
Dire Tiger: 4 claws +20 (2d4+10 plus grab), bite +20 (2d6+10/19–20 plus grab)
Essentually it is better to do things that prevent damage from taking place in the first place than sitting around and waiting to Cure/Remove it. A combination of party or self buffs, spells that either soak up damage or stop enemies from attacking or having an advantage, using Summon Monster to call more weaker creatures as a wall of bodies between the party and the enemy(s), as it really doesn't matter too much if they take damage, but every hit they take is one the party doesn't, and thus doesn't need to heal, but it does offer a lot more option for flank, cuts off enemies from taking too much terrain advantage, prevents charge, (especially with pounce or grab attacks or the like), and forces them to spread out attacks rather than focus, which also means an after battle Channel Energy can more likely fully heal everyone, rather than either burning half of them or some cure spells one one guy.
This is especially true against creatures that have poison, curse, or disease attacks. Taking them out quickly is a thousand times better than trying to go around and Restore/Remove conditions from multiple characters during, or even afterwards. One spell, Bless, Bull's Str, Shield of Faith, anything that either kills the monster one round fast or helps prevent a hit is essentually a free Cure/Remove/Restore spell, too, or even more than one if it stops the party from all getting poisoned or diseased.
This is the net reason for Counterspelling.
Enemy caster casts Dominate on the Fighter.
No, he doesn't.
Enemy Meteor Swarms the party.
No, he doesn't.
Enemy Summons Monster IX to block.
No, he doesn't.
Enemy Greater Dispels the buffed cleric.
No, he doesn't.
Enemy Disintegrates the Rogue.
No, he doesn't.
The enemy just did six rounds of nothing while the rest of the party beat on him. He's toast, and the party walks away without a scratch. A sorc had to burn some spell slots, but that's it...he's still got plenty of juice left.
A wizard would have burned six KEY SPELLS, gimping him if there's more encounters.
Counterspelling is a no-winner for wizards, but sorcs have plenty of slots to burn. It's a great tactic for them.
Also note that Improved Counterspelling variants that let you use any spell of the same school basically turn any sorc with Heighten spell and all 8 schools among their spells known into a perfect counterspeller. The only thing you have to worry about in this variation is casters with Quicken spell who might get something through.
==+Aelryinth
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This is the net reason for Counterspelling.
Sorry, brother, I was responding to this:
I've seen well constructed, well-played healbots be far more effective than clerics who wade into melee, but now I'm curious as to your reasoning ... have any proof and/or anecdotes to share?
. . . not Counterspelling. I've only seen it actually work a few times, it has always been in the hands of an NPC caster against the party, and fully agree, it is almost never worth it, even if you do manage to get it to work. It's way too circumstancial, in my opinion. If it didnt use up a spell, (from ether the caster or the counterer, and was more of a battle of wills, it might be worth it.
Using it against the party generally doesn't work, because spending an action to negate a PC's action doesn't work for any encounter where the enemy has fewer actions then the PC's, OR there's other characters to break up the slack.
Stopping a Dominate Before the fighter turns and hacks on the cleric and totally turns the tide of battle? VERY good use of PC action. Stopping a Gate or other nasty spell? Same thing.
But if the wizard doesn't have a dominate, he's out of luck. It's more effective then a Dispel, it stops the spell before adverse events happen, and it makes the caster there look like a chump.
In effect, COunterspelling is COndition Prevention, which is better then Condition Removal...which is why I was citing your argument.
==Aelryinth
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1) Look, sometimes you gotta accept that your minions...er I mean party members are going to do something stupid and get themselves killed. It happens. When it does, you shed a tear, loot their body, dump it in a river and get a new one.
2) My answer to any situation like that is going to be "Leave and come back tomorrow" or "Figure out another way"
Besides, you have other spells besides haste. Heck, I have ruined more high level monster's lives with one grease spell than I can count on my fingers and toes.
3)I'm just being honest. To some degree, you have to adapt to your game. My GM doesn't like dungeons. He likes throwing one or two encounters per day at us which are usually at minimum CR = APL +5. The other day my 4th level wizard got killed in the surprise round because he failed the save on an Adult Black Dragon's acid breath attack. You adapt to the game you play.
4) Fair nuff, I will concede that.
5) Well they only get the sense motive if you give them the Chance! If he's hold up in his tent delivering orders by messenger hawk or something, they don't get the opportunity to sense motive.
6) It's hard to track a Teleporting wizard and by the time that it becomes easy to do so, the wizard should have mindblank up all the time.
7) Wizards have to spend years studying arcane texts and have a deep appreciation for the power that they wield. Sorcerers are just pretty boys whose hair is so well coiffed that is allows them to tap into arcane leylines. No appreciation for power cause it's just handed to them.
8) What part of "You replace your minions...er party with a new party" didn't you read? YOU don't beat on it with a stick, that's the fighter/paladin/barbarian/ranger's job.
And if they bring friends...oh well jeez, I guess I'll just have to fly above them and blind them all with Pyrotechnics. Or keep them all rolling around on the floor in my grease spells.
To be honest, In 2 years of roleplaying,
I gather Aelryinth has been playing at least since AD&D. Come back in 15 or 20 years :p
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I gather Aelryinth has been playing at least since AD&D. Come back in 15 or 20 years :p
To be honest, In 2 years of roleplaying,
Yes, because all that experience in outdated systems immediately defeats any arguments on my behalf? How is all that knowledge of THAC0 helping out these days?
My point was that I have adapted my playstyle to suit the DMs I play with. Most of my DMs do not offer scenarios where the spell Web is useful and so over the course of my playing the game, I have removed it from my usual repertoire.
Yeah, since '80. :)
1) So, the adventure is over, and you lost because you can't get over the canyon. It doesn't matter how you lost, you just lost to an OBSTACLE, not even an encounter.
2)And you might not be able to leave, and there might not be time for another option. What do you do?
3)Yeah, that's limiting your play experience. Wizards rule at the ten minute work day...they nova, and then leave to play. That's a tremendously unrealistic manner of play, and in other games will get you killed.
4) :)
5) Any general who doesn't have an aide watching for this in a magical world is never going to make general. C'mon, the idea of charming the guy in charge has been known for MILLENIA. It's not going to work for long, if at all, unless the enemy is colossally stupid. Seriously, it's like you're thinking the enemy has no access to magic or spellcasters of their own, and the DOminate is trumped by a level 1 spell!
6) The enemy needs to make a Knowledge (Arcane) check or a Gather INformation check to see who you and your companions are. Then they need to find your base, another GI check. This can be done with GREAT SPEED, and doesn't need Divination. The same tricks you use to get around their scrying protections (does everyone in the party have Non-Detect/Mind Blank? Do their horses? How about their weapons, if they don't keep them on them all the time?) they will use to get around yours. If you run, they will find out who you are, learn about you, prepare for you, and kill you.
If they aren't doing this...tell me, what would you do if you were getting ambushed by someone? Sit around and do nothing, wait for them to come back at their convenience and ambush you again?
Do you think NPC's are that dumb, too?
These are the situations where Wizards have problems. Wizards prepare and kill things. They have a difficult time enduring and adapting on the fly.
Your GM's play style is spoiling you to a wizard, because a Wizard is ideal for what he's doing.
And I believe Teleport Trace or some variant is level 3. At higher levels there's at least one creature that can directly follow you if you teleport away (neothelid).
7)See, it's comments like that which show that wizards are just not fun. And you left out the 'pretty girl' part of the sorc equation, I noticed...all those hoary bearded fuddie duddies poring over their books in some library and wouldn't know how to socialize without magic to cover for their lack of basic table manners and subbing Charm Person for charm and good personal hygiene...
8)Or, since you're dead, they'll need to replace their wizard.
And you don't have minions, you left them behind, remember? And word got around, and nobody wants to work with/for you. At least, nobody who wouldn't leave you behind in a heartbeat, either. Just go look at the quality of people you'd attract under the Leadership/Henchman rules after your attitude, callousness, and loss of minions gets around.
And they bring friends, and simply pull back under cover, or pop a couple smokesticks, and throw stuff at you, and you die. ANd you know, the duration of a Fly spell isn't very long, you can't RUN with it, and they can just follow you from the ground until it expires, then kill and eat you.
:)
=+Aelryinth
I gather Aelryinth has been playing at least since AD&D. Come back in 15 or 20 years :p
To be honest, In 2 years of roleplaying,Yes, because all that experience in outdated systems immediately defeats any arguments on my behalf? How is all that knowledge of THAC0 helping out these days?
My point was that I have adapted my playstyle to suit the DMs I play with. Most of my DMs do not offer scenarios where the spell Web is useful and so over the course of my playing the game, I have removed it from my usual repertoire.
You're dismissing valid and existing play styles because you don't have to worry about them, is the point he's trying to make.
Then you're dismissing sorcs because wizards are better at your style of play...and I'll fully agree with you, wizards are better at the ten minute work day, two encounter load and prepare ahead of time for specific enemies.
That's, like, a tailor made campaign for the class.
He noted my length because campaign style in earlier editions was much more 'realistic'. Players had little control over the world, and random things happened all the time. Sometimes you had to grind, sometimes you couldn't run, and sometimes you had no choice but to run.
Dungeon adventuring was also a huge part of the playstyle. Outdoor encounters, not so much. It was called Dungeons and Dragons, not Outdoors, Arenas and Dragons!
There are tons of play styles, from the "Got to reach the rock by midnight" to the "If we run, they hunt us down and kill us." that do not cater to the wizard. Ignoring what YOU would do if subject to a Whizbanging wizard (pop in, cast, teleport away) and not letting NPC's do the same, is also a problem here.
But, to each their own playstyle. It's not wrong, it's just yours...and there are tons more out there.
I mean, in the old days, the single most valuable object you could run into was a wizard's spellbook...those things were worth tens of thousands of gold peices each. Wizards were always watched like hawks because just filching their spellbook could set a theif up for life, and going after your spellbook was EXPECTED. Losing it could destroy a wizard. IT still can destroy a wizard...but nobody strikes at a wizard that way, because it's not fun...it's just realistic.
==Aelryinth
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Using it against the party generally doesn't work, because spending an action to negate a PC's action doesn't work for any encounter where the enemy has fewer actions then the PC's, OR there's other characters to break up the slack.
It does if the enemy is a party, and are using tactics, too, or the party doesn't realize they are there,yet.
:)
I'm not <Devil's> advocating it, as much as just saying that's the only time I've ever seen it used and work well. I had attemtpted it back in early 3E and a time or 2 in 3.5, and always failed. But I also play a lot of divine casters, so spell schools seem a little less common, am typically the only caster int he party, so my spells are more precious, and typically reserve Disples for specific things, not the chance that a Counterspell may be a party saver with it. Also note that Pathfinder has changed Dispel Magic to be much more usefull, but I really haven't even bothered with it since early 3.5.
That being said, I think you may be trying to combine my prior post with that of someone else you where arguing with, when my point was directed at someone else, and really not the same point at all. :)
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I gather Aelryinth has been playing at least since AD&D. Come back in 15 or 20 years :p
To be honest, In 2 years of roleplaying,Yes, because all that experience in outdated systems immediately defeats any arguments on my behalf? How is all that knowledge of THAC0 helping out these days?
My point was that I have adapted my playstyle to suit the DMs I play with. Most of my DMs do not offer scenarios where the spell Web is useful and so over the course of my playing the game, I have removed it from my usual repertoire.
You're dismissing valid and existing play styles because you don't have to worry about them, is the point he's trying to make.
Then you're dismissing sorcs because wizards are better at your style of play...and I'll fully agree with you, wizards are better at the ten minute work day, two encounter load and prepare ahead of time for specific enemies.
That's, like, a tailor made campaign for the class.
He noted my length because campaign style in earlier editions was much more 'realistic'. Players had little control over the world, and random things happened all the time. Sometimes you had to grind, sometimes you couldn't run, and sometimes you had no choice but to run.
Dungeon adventuring was also a huge part of the playstyle. Outdoor encounters, not so much. It was called Dungeons and Dragons, not Outdoors, Arenas and Dragons!
There are tons of play styles, from the "Got to reach the rock by midnight" to the "If we run, they hunt us down and kill us." that do not cater to the wizard. Ignoring what YOU would do if subject to a Whizbanging wizard (pop in, cast, teleport away) and not letting NPC's do the same, is also a problem here.
But, to each their own playstyle. It's not wrong, it's just yours...and there are tons more out there.
I mean, in the old days, the single most valuable object you could run into was a wizard's spellbook...those things were worth tens of thousands of gold...
I'm not dismissing sorcerers. I'm ROLEPLAYING MY WIZARD. I'm answering all your stuff how my Wizard would answer the question. Sorry, I just was getting the impression you thought I was being serious.
I don't give two craps what someone wants to play, shoot summoner is one of my favorite classes, although I rarely get to play it because most of my games are Core only.
Well, your reply was getting serious when you mentioned 'last two years of play', 'style of GM', and the metaworld. That means whimsical replies suddenly start looking really weird.
I mean, really, if the wizard thinks of the rest of the party as minions, the rest of hte party is going to consider him disposable, as well. After all, there's always another wizard...and hopefully one with a better attitude. It's not realistic to think of other party members that way, role play or otherwise.
:P
===Aelryinth
Using it against the party generally doesn't work, because spending an action to negate a PC's action doesn't work for any encounter where the enemy has fewer actions then the PC's, OR there's other characters to break up the slack.It does if the enemy is a party, and are using tactics, too, or the party doesn't realize they are there,yet.
:)
I'm not <Devil's> advocating it, as much as just saying that's the only time I've ever seen it used and work well. I had attemtpted it back in early 3E and a time or 2 in 3.5, and always failed. But I also play a lot of divine casters, so spell schools seem a little less common, am typically the only caster int he party, so my spells are more precious, and typically reserve Disples for specific things, not the chance that a Counterspell may be a party saver with it. Also note that Pathfinder has changed Dispel Magic to be much more usefull, but I really haven't even bothered with it since early 3.5.
That being said, I think you may be trying to combine my prior post with that of someone else you where arguing with, when my point was directed at someone else, and really not the same point at all. :)
Two points here.
1) I used your post because the key of it was an oz of Damage Prevention is worth a pound of Damage Cure. Counterspelling is damage prevention.
2) Counterspelling doesn't work that well for clerics, either. It doesn't work well for prepared casters much at all.
It works REALLY well for spontaneous casters who are just burning ample spell slots, not spells.
So, naturally it didn't seem to work well for you.
A Sorcerer with Heighten Spell and all eight schools represented somewhere in his Spells Known can Counter ANY spell of any level he can cast. The only thing he might have to worry about is range.
A prepared caster is limited to spells in memory, which is much more difficult, and actually uses up a much more finite resource.
Counterspelling is a sorceror's game.
=+Aelryinth
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Well, your reply was getting serious when you mentioned 'last two years of play', 'style of GM', and the metaworld. That means whimsical replies suddenly start looking really weird.
I mean, really, if the wizard thinks of the rest of the party as minions, the rest of hte party is going to consider him disposable, as well. After all, there's always another wizard...and hopefully one with a better attitude. It's not realistic to think of other party members that way, role play or otherwise.
:P
===Aelryinth
Well, I do have to explain the way I think the way I think sometimes, context is crucial.
As for party members, you don't let them KNOW that they're minions. Gawd, everyone knows that. You cry on their dead corpses (preferably while pocketing a few of their more valuable magic items) and write them a touching eulogy. You gotta be crafty bout these things.
Also, our discussion about the invading army reminded me of a game I played long time ago where we had gotten intel that an invading army was on the way, so we scouted them, figured out where the general was staying, and then snuck in during the night, murdered the general in his sleep, and then had the bard take his place. Oh the fun you can have with a good Bluff/Disguise/Diplomacy and a wand of Disguise Self.
It took them a month to figure out what happened and by that point we had poisoned all the provisions, "accidentally" set fire to the gunpowder stores, had three officers executed as "traitors" and fed all their troop movements to an allied nation of ours who sieged their capitol while the main army was away.
Good times. Oh and then we caught their army in a pincer between our army and our ally's and murdered everyone.
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1) I used your post because the key of it was an oz of Damage Prevention is worth a pound of Damage Cure. Counterspelling is damage prevention.
It can be, but it is a very unreliable method for it most of the time, and also risky in that the spell you end up wasting an action Countering may not actually be worth it afterwards. I get what your saying, I just disagree with the level of usefulness you attribute to it. Typically, enemies are ging to have slightly higher spells than you, particularly if they are the BBEG, which means (except for Dispel Magic) you can not Counter it. You (usually) need to Ready an Action to do so, then make a Spellcraft Check, and then have the right spell at the time. Any one of the conditions is off, you just wasted your whole turn for no effect. Also note that if you do not have Improved Counterspell, you need the exact same spell being cast, or it's opposite version.
Also, you can not, (normally) use a Heightened Spell to Counter spell, as that would be at least a Full Round Action.
spontaneously casting a cure or inf lict spell, or a druid
spontaneously casting a summon nature’s ally spell, can
cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is
also required in this case. Casting a standard action
metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action,
and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra
full-round action to cast. The only exception is for spells
modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which can be cast as
a swift action.
you must select an opponent as the target of the
counterspell. You do this by choosing to ready an
action (see Combat on page 203). In doing so, you
elect to wait to complete your action until your
opponent tries to cast a spell. You may still move at
your normal speed, since ready is a standard action.
If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell,
make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This
check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly
identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it.
If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.
To complete the action, you must then cast an
appropriate spell. As a general rule, a spell can only
counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and
you have it prepared (or have a slot of the appropriate
level available), you cast it, creating a counterspell effect.
If the target is within range, both spells automatically
negate each other with no other results.
With that in mind, even the Sorcerer Bloodline ability that lets you do faster Metamagic is still going to have some trouble, and putting a lot into that sort of build, in my opinion. It's just not worth it.
Because clerics are very powerful already.Pallys are usually more fighty than clerics. Clerics can be sub-optimal combatants, with low strength or con, and still contribute a lot. Pallys tend to get physical more often, smiting and such.
And, what Cheapy said.
Clerics are wise in their faith. Pallys are more overt warriors for their faith, and can't suck at combat.
I would like to add that adding wisdom to all saves and twice to will saves would be completely broken. No combat cleric worth their salt would not take a 2 level dip into paladin.
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Also what Cheapy said.