Weirdo
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A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.
In combat or speaking –20
Not moving +20
Using Stealth = Stealth check +20
As far as I can tell, for a creature that is speaking but stationary within their square the speaking and not moving modifiers cancel each other out (+/-20).
1) Does this mean that a creature that is within 30ft, stationary and casting spells (with a verbal component, requiring speaking in a strong voice) the DC to notice that they are present is 20?
2) In this case would the Perception DC to pinpoint their location be 40 (DC to notice + pinpoint DC modifier of 20)?
3) If the invisible spellcaster above is actively using stealth to remain inconspicuous while invisible and casting, would the DC to notice then be 20 + Stealth check, and the DC to pinpoint be 40 + Stealth check?
4) Would all these checks be made passively? That is, should the DM roll a perception check for the players and, if the roll is high enough, inform the players that they hear an incantation coming out of nowhere? Or would the players be required to announce they are making a perception check?
| VRMH |
1) Does this mean that a creature that is within 30ft, stationary and casting spells (with a verbal component, requiring speaking in a strong voice) the DC to notice that they are present is 20?Yes, though that's just the caster. If the spell has a discernible effect, it's another matter.
2) In this case would the Perception DC to pinpoint their location be 40 (DC to notice + pinpoint DC modifier of 20)?Yup. Just don't cast any spells with visible effects.
3) If the invisible spellcaster above is actively using stealth to remain inconspicuous while invisible and casting, would the DC to notice then be 20 + Stealth check, and the DC to pinpoint be 40 + Stealth check?I'm not sure you can use stealth while casting. A stealth check is made while moving - which you aren't - or while hiding and not being observed. If you're casting from cover, you can use stealth. Not when you're just standing there - unless you make a bluff check first.
4) Would all these checks be made passively? That is, should the DM roll a perception check for the players and, if the roll is high enough, inform the players that they hear an incantation coming out of nowhere? Or would the players be required to announce they are making a perception check?
If no-one has any reason yet to be vigilant, the GM acts as if they all took 10. Once the PCs are actively involved, it's up to the players.
| setzer9999 |
Invisibility grants total concealment, but speaking makes you unable to use Stealth.
If you are casting a spell with no verbal component or an SLA though, you could use Stealth while doing so as long as the spell you are casting is not an attack. What constitutes an attack seems to be more than just something with an attack roll when we are talking about invisibility.
Invisibility states that any spell that affects a foe is considered "an attack", not only things with attack rolls, so if your spell affects your foe, you lose invisibility.
But, if say, an invisible summoner cast his Summon Monster (Sp), and had already successfully used Stealth this round, this is neither an attack in terms of the Stealth rules or the invisibility rules. I'd argue that in this case he could remain invisible, use Stealth, and use the SLA all a the same time, while, therefore, benefiting from +40 for not moving and using Stealth while invisible.
However, the chart also says if you are in combat you get a -20... does that mean that once initiative is rolled, you automatically become "20" easier to pinpoint? That seems wrong to me. Hm.
Weirdo
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The caster could be summoning or casting buffs on himself (which are not attacks). He could also be casting attack spells if he has Greater Invisibility. I'm assuming in either case his invisibility doesn't break because of what he cast.
I'm not sure you can use stealth while casting. A stealth check is made while moving - which you aren't - or while hiding and not being observed. If you're casting from cover, you can use stealth. Not when you're just standing there - unless you make a bluff check first.
I'd assume it's possible to use Stealth while invisible even without cover because when invisible and unnoticed you're effectively hiding and not being observed. As setzer said, you've already got total concealment.
Would speaking make stealth impossible, or just apply the noted -20 penalty? In the latter case stealth could be represented as timing your verbal components to be partly masked by the ambient noise.
However, the chart also says if you are in combat you get a -20... does that mean that once initiative is rolled, you automatically become "20" easier to pinpoint? That seems wrong to me. Hm.
I assume the modifier only applies if you are interacting in combat, and that readying actions or performing purely mental actions that have no visible effect (such as buffing yourself with a spell with no components, or telepathically directing allies) do not incur the penalty. Might be a grey area, though - that's why I'm asking for help interpreting the system here.
| Tacticslion |
RAW, when you're in combat, regardless of how, you get a -20. So, that's probably the way that works, then.
On the other hand, RAW, stealth is kind of awful. That's why Paizo conducted a revised play-test that'll never make it into PF's rule system.
The way that I look at it, the reason for the -20 comes from several sources at once. The heightened senses of those in danger, the flurry of movements and interactions with others, and even simple things like an inability to be careful about where you step (and leave footprints) or bleed (and leave evidence) and the sound of your voice or other actions (giving away your direction and general distance) and the like. All this and more combines to create the stealth penalty in combat.
So if you're perfectly still, giving orders mentally... there's nothing to support that you'd get that penalty. If you're casting spells... well, you're basically playing a game of Marco-Polo with everyone but you as "it". And you can find people with Marco-Polo.