So, I had a silly idea last night and I wanted some interpretation. I don't think RAW necessarily gives the full answer here.
To start, here's the rules for Summon Monster, which Mount is based off of:
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, F/DF (a tiny bag and a small candle)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one summoned creature
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table 10–1. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).
When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type. Creatures on Table 10–1 marked with an “*” are summoned with the celestial template, if you are good, and the fiendish template, if you are evil. If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature. Creatures marked with an “*” always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment. Summoning these creatures makes the summoning spell's type match your alignment.
The big question: Does "30 feet in the air" constitute "an environment that cannot support them" for horses?
If it does not, each horse is worth 4d6 damage (Reflex DC 15 for half) with up to 7 horses by level 5 (assumes Varisian Tattoo and Superior Summoning, which is possible on a PFS Wizard) and each horse covering a 10x10 section of grid. If you had a Reach, Lesser rod, you could stack all of the horses in a vertical line above the intended target. If the horses are instead dropped from 150+ ft, each horse is worth 8d6. If less than 30 ft, 2d6.
So, what do people think?
So, I had a silly idea last night... [silly idea omitted]... So, what do people think?
Um, no.
The big question: Does "30 feet in the air" constitute "an environment that cannot support them" for horses?
Of course it does. They are not pegasi. They are horse. An environment that cannot support a creature is one that if the creature is summoned into it would be harmed or killed as a result.
And since you never see horses flying (because the can't) summoning them in mid air would simply fail.
I am pretty sure that rule was put in for 1) Common sense and 2) to stop exactly what your trying to do.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
See your premise that 30 feet in the air is a valid location for a summoning spell is where this idea fails.
I think this was clarified at some point to make sure that "support" meant that they can stand on the surface they have been summoned on, rather than they can simply exist in an environment that supports their existence.
So sadly, I do not believe that Horsesplosion Mark VI is a viable method of bringing the rain.
I would be perfectly happy to be proven wrong...since c'mon, dropping a horse on a baddie is pretty hilarious.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Back in 1st edition, when the mount spell could summon an elephant, and there was no such 'onto a surface that can support them' distinction, this was a valid question. (And, rules or no rules, the answer was the same. No.) But that was like, the '70s, when we had Thac0s and Weapon Speed Factors, and had to walk to our gaming sessions, thirty miles, in driving snow, uphill, both ways...
Check the conjuration write up in the magic section. It says you can't summon monsters in mid air if they can't fly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You should rather buy a Wand of Anvils
|
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
Check the conjuration write up in the magic section. It says you can't summon monsters in mid air if they can't fly.
You can't summon them mid air even if they can fly.
And that can have interesting consequences on the plain of air and the Astral plane.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You should rather buy a Wand of Anvils
Or a Wand of Pianos.
|
|
*plays along*
So first you need to cast a spell that would create some kind of platform 30' up, then wait until it's just a round or two away from expiring and then summon the horses... you could summon them one on top of another, since they wouldn't be in mid-air... wait for the platform to poof and down come the horses!
... okay, I'm done.
Maybe you could summon something that can fly, and order it to fly above the target, and then stun it with a sound burst, so that it falls on the target!
Or not.
Tenser's floating disk just doesn't have the height. Tenser's slipped disk causes unmanly back spasms, so that's no use.
It's a stumper!
You should rather buy a Wand of AnvilsOr a Wand of Pianos.
I also like the Japanese version of the classic, with a dozen or so washtubs
*plays along*
So first you need to cast a spell that would create some kind of platform 30' up, then wait until it's just a round or two away from expiring and then summon the horses... you could summon them one on top of another, since they wouldn't be in mid-air... wait for the platform to poof and down come the horses!
... okay, I'm done.
Or do the same with Summon spells And T-Rexs, Leviathans, the largest earth or fire elementals, the list goes on...
*plays along*
So first you need to cast a spell that would create some kind of platform 30' up, then wait until it's just a round or two away from expiring and then summon the horses... you could summon them one on top of another, since they wouldn't be in mid-air... wait for the platform to poof and down come the horses!
... okay, I'm done.
Maybe you could summon something that can fly, and order it to fly above the target, and then stun it with a sound burst, so that it falls on the target!
Or not.
Tenser's floating disk just doesn't have the height. Tenser's slipped disk causes unmanly back spasms, so that's no use.
It's a stumper!
a celestial elephant could be just ordered to stop flying after it gets summoned, same effect
Further Playing Along!
Takes a few more levels, but get Wall of Force and summon it as a plane in mid air! Horses summon on plane. Dismiss plane. Drop horse-bombs. Enemy army is terrified and disgusted.
Yeah. I am sure that isn't legal for some reason, but it would be funny right?
EDIT: Aww... Atarlost beat me by seconds!
Can't Wall of Force be used this way? I'm sure I've heard of unsecured horizontal force walls as an anti-dragon defense.
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.
So no on the wall of force ledge.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
Check the conjuration write up in the magic section. It says you can't summon monsters in mid air if they can't fly.You can't summon them mid air even if they can fly.
And that can have interesting consequences on the plain of air and the Astral plane.
I knew that there had to be something. Level 2 Meteor Swarm seemed ridiculous.
Ok so lets assume for grins that it works.
Do you really, truly, honestly want to give the DM- who doesn't have to spend the gold to get all this stuff- this kind of weapon?
I mean sure- its all fun and games when you one shot the BBEG with a dozen horses.. its not nearly so fun when the next BBEG (and all of his goons) rain horses down on the group and collect -your- gear to sell back to the vendor for half price.
Anything you can do, the DM can do without having to take 6 months to earn the gold. he just pulls out a pencil and writes it in.
Its the natural balance to "hmm I wonder if This idea would work!" tricks. The game gives him enough ammo as it is, I think I'll decline to add this one to the list :)
-S
But wait....
What if you summon the horses on the ground, underneath a flying enemy, and then cast Reverse Gravity?!
(I like this playing along business)
|
|
Can a wizard summon underwater?A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
Check the conjuration write up in the magic section. It says you can't summon monsters in mid air if they can't fly.You can't summon them mid air even if they can fly.
And that can have interesting consequences on the plain of air and the Astral plane.
After a bit of further thought on this piece I think you can summon anything that is naturally buoyant in the environment in which it is summoned.
So a fish can be summoned in mid water and a gas spore midair, but anything that will have to make any kind of flying check to stay midair can't be summoned in the air.
RAW apparently you can't summon an air elemental in the air and that is a bit weird.
I knew that there had to be something. Level 2 Meteor Swarm seemed ridiculous.
Or perhaps in this case MEATeor Swarm? :-)
But wait....
What if you summon the horses on the ground, underneath a flying enemy, and then cast Reverse Gravity?!
(I like this playing along business)
You could be doing much better things if you had Reverse Gravity prepped.
Honestly, I'm more than OK with this silliness not working. The spell is already better than SM 1 and 2, probably pushing up through SM 3 because of how many you get. Even though they're not combat trained (woo secondary natural weapon attacks!), they still clog up the field really well. SM 3 has the great addition of the Lantern Archon, which has its own thing going.
Ok so lets assume for grins that it works.
Do you really, truly, honestly want to give the DM- who doesn't have to spend the gold to get all this stuff- this kind of weapon?
I mean sure- its all fun and games when you one shot the BBEG with a dozen horses.. its not nearly so fun when the next BBEG (and all of his goons) rain horses down on the group and collect -your- gear to sell back to the vendor for half price.
Anything you can do, the DM can do without having to take 6 months to earn the gold. he just pulls out a pencil and writes it in.
Its the natural balance to "hmm I wonder if This idea would work!" tricks. The game gives him enough ammo as it is, I think I'll decline to add this one to the list :)
-S
If the DM really wanted to drop horses, he'd just summon them on a cliff and order them to jump off. Sometimes, terrain is more than sufficient as a DM tool.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You know sometimes attempts to prevent people from abusing the rules just sucks the fun out of things.
A Wall of Force can only be vertical? Really? Is this some kind of universal law? What possible explanation can be given for this? I mean, I can cast a Wall of Force to block a doorway, but I can't block a trapdoor, because it is horizontal? How does that even make sense?
And I am going to let people summon flying creatures in the air, or aquatic creatures in the water. It just doesn't make sense not too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't care what the rules say, summoning a Lantern Archon onto the ground is dumb. They are far too floaty for that.
I also like the Japanese version of the classic, with a dozen or so washtubsYou should rather buy a Wand of AnvilsOr a Wand of Pianos.
Silent Image + Shadow GambitI also like the Japanese version of the classic, with a dozen or so washtubsYou should rather buy a Wand of AnvilsOr a Wand of Pianos.
I like it.
|
|
Back in 1st edition, when the mount spell could summon an elephant, and there was no such 'onto a surface that can support them' distinction, this was a valid question. (And, rules or no rules, the answer was the same. No.) But that was like, the '70s, when we had Thac0s and Weapon Speed Factors, and had to walk to our gaming sessions, thirty miles, in driving snow, uphill, both ways...
Pfft. Our snow didn't just drive, it FLEW. You kids today got it easy.