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A spell with a range of "touch" like Shocking Grasp or Inflict Wounds involves making a melee touch attack. Could the caster use Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with that attack to get the extra AC or the extra damage to the spell? Combat Experise states you must make an attack or a full-attack action to declare you're using it, it doesn't say it can't be a touch attack.
Power attack specifically states it does not apply to touch attacks, so no.
The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Combat Expertise requires an attack or Full-attack action, so no also.
You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon.
- Gauss
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Combat Expertise should work just fine, but Power Attack specifically states that it does not work with touch attacks.
**Edit**
Combat Expertise specifies that it must be used in conjunction with a melee weapon, not certain if your melee touch qualifies for that,
however, since it can be used in conjunction with an attack, as long as the melee weapon requirement is met, it should be fine:
Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone.
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
Ssalarn: Attack actions are standard actions. The attack that comes with a touch spell is a free action so is not eligible. Note: this is something of a grey area with interpretation in either direction possible. Perhaps if anyone has a reference from a developer that comments on this question.
- Gauss
Power Attack could work, if you decide to "hold the charge" of your spell and deliver it with an Unarmed Attack instead.
Both will work with a held charge on an attack action the next round with an unarmed strike or magus with a spell strike ability.
PA will work with with spell strike regardless of what action used.
Combat expertise will work if you make a regular touch attack on the following round or later the same round if a quickened spell.
hang on power attack won't add damage to the spell, it will only add damage to the physical attack being made
so if its being delivered through and unarmed strike then power attack applies to unarmed strike damage then apply spell damage.
as for combat expertise why would would want to make your spell less likely to hit for a mediocre AC bump ?
Yeah should have specified that Phasics. At no point will you do more damage from lets say inflict moderate wounds.
On CE assuming you going to just use the attack action to make a touch attack that your fairly certain will hit then the AC boost might be worth it. Might be the operative word.
On CE assuming you going to just use the attack action to make a touch attack that your fairly certain will hit then the AC boost might be worth it. Might be the operative word.
Heh I'm just thinking If I'm dishing out say a Vampric Touch better yet a Harm spell do I really want to risk that spell on a couple of extra points of AC for s single round ? Or do I want to make damn sure that spell hits.
I mean its not like you know the touch AC for certain , GM might have bumped it ever so slightly and you might roll lower than you thought you would.
I personally wouldn't do it unless I had already hit on a fairly low roll earlier.
Lets say last round I used acid arrow and hit on a roll of a 5 at the point if the monster moves up sure anything higher than an 8 on the dice im not chancing unless the bard just started singing.
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I personally wouldn't do it unless I had already hit on a fairly low roll earlier.
Lets say last round I used acid arrow and hit on a roll of a 5 at the point if the monster moves up sure anything higher than an 8 on the dice im not chancing unless the bard just started singing.
I'm not saying it's strategically a good idea, I'm just asking if it's possible. If I were a spellcaster with more INT than CON, I'd want a little extra security delivering a touch spell.
From a tactical standpoint, any dedicated spellcaster should take Reach Spell before they take CE. But if you're, say, a Magus who likes to make trip attacks? Well then you probably had to take CE anyway; you might as well get some use out of it.
Here's another question-- if you CE a touch spell, does the AC bonus apply to the AoO you provoke by casting the spell?
Heh I'm just thinking If I'm dishing out say a Vampric Touch better yet a Harm spell do I really want to risk that spell on a couple of extra points of AC for s single round ? Or do I want to make damn sure that spell hits.
You can always roll a 1... but you wouldn't lose the spell even if you miss with a melee touch attack. (If it were a ranged attack you would, and you'd also provoke an AOO. Ick.)
AC isn't usually the best way for casters to avoid being hit in melee, but if I thought the extra AC from Combat Expertise would actually be useful (in avoiding lower iterative attacks, for example) and I had the feat, I'd probably risk the attack penalty; even if it made me miss, I'd still have the charge.
Touch attacks with a spell are considered "armed" attacks both offensively and defensively. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that to fulfill the requirement of making attacks with a weapon. (Although I think the "weapon-like spells" language was 3E, that functionality has been carried over afaik.) Note that "Fighting Defensively" specifically talks about doing it as a standard action or a full-round action, depending on whether you're doing a full attack or not, but that language isn't present in Combat Expertise, nor is Fighting Defensively referenced.
Here's another question-- if you CE a touch spell, does the AC bonus apply to the AoO you provoke by casting the spell?
No. The AOO can disrupt the spell, so at the time of the AOO, you aren't armed with the thing you're attacking with and haven't satisfied the requirements of Combat Expertise.
It does seem a little weird, since if you hit with the spell and discharge it, you're no longer armed, but you don't lose the bonus by being disarmed of your rapier; I guess it's largely a way of not leaving yourself open to counterattack.