Ranger archetype Warden question

[Ramza Wyvernjack]

I'm bit confused, how does Quarry ability exactly work with this archetype?

Archetype removes all favored enemies class feature. Quarry needs favored enemies to be used upon. Help?

[Grand Moff Vixen]

It looks like the quarry ability cannot be used with that archetype. That is a drawback of being a warden. You are not as focused on enemies as a base ranger.

[Ramza Wyvernjack]

I don't mind that, but it seems like a slip up since it's not mentioned in the archetype.

Infiltrator for example looses favored terrain, but gains ability to use camouflage(which requires terrain) when using his Adaptation ability.

[Atarlost]

The Warden is a pretty bad archetype. With neither favored enemy nor style feats nor any other combat features he's a warrior with a better reflex save. This means he's a drag on APL in combat and inflates CR if used as an NPC. In return he gets to be better at stuff a normal ranger is perfectly adequate at.

Nullifying a feature without giving anything in return is right in line with the quality of the archetype.

[Ramza Wyvernjack]

Yeah, I'm unsure on warden, though I have to admit the terrain features fit alot into what I'm trying to get, a druid like character minus the focus on spellcasting and wildshapes.

Maybe if I asked the dm to remove Quarry abilities in place of feats, it feels like more senseible loss.

[Brotato]

Warden is the archetype you take when you're only going to level 3 to qualify for Horizon Walker in order to game an extra Favored Terrain bonus. Other than that it's more or less worthless.

[Ramza Wyvernjack]

So, faq this thing or what to do?

[Grand Moff Vixen]

Atarlost wrote:

The Warden is a pretty bad archetype. With neither favored enemy nor style feats nor any other combat features he's a warrior with a better reflex save. This means he's a drag on APL in combat and inflates CR if used as an NPC. In return he gets to be better at stuff a normal ranger is perfectly adequate at.

Nullifying a feature without giving anything in return is right in line with the quality of the archetype.

Not everyone likes the idea of a base ranger. Depending on what I am making, I sometimes like the focus on the the terrain which makes it more scout-like and wilderness focused. It has it's place. If you don't like it, don't take it.

[Brotato]

Grand Moff Vixen wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

The Warden is a pretty bad archetype. With neither favored enemy nor style feats nor any other combat features he's a warrior with a better reflex save. This means he's a drag on APL in combat and inflates CR if used as an NPC. In return he gets to be better at stuff a normal ranger is perfectly adequate at.

Nullifying a feature without giving anything in return is right in line with the quality of the archetype.

Not everyone likes the idea of a base ranger. Depending on what I am making, I sometimes like the focus on the the terrain which makes it more scout-like and wilderness focused. It has it's place. If you don't like it, don't take it.

Arguing that an archetype that has a residual class feature that is *useless* has its place is arguing for the sake of argument. It's bad design, plain and simple. Just because you can *make* it work doesn't make it any less so.

[LazarX]

Atarlost wrote:

The Warden is a pretty bad archetype. With neither favored enemy nor style feats nor any other combat features he's a warrior with a better reflex save. This means he's a drag on APL in combat and inflates CR if used as an NPC. In return he gets to be better at stuff a normal ranger is perfectly adequate at.

Nullifying a feature without giving anything in return is right in line with the quality of the archetype.

He's a warrior with better reflex, access to more skills and better at survival, He's an explorer type ranger as opposed to one that's fueled by hatred. and better at keeping his group in survival mode, He's the go to guy you want as a caravan master.

And given that the only ability he's giving up is favored enemy, I don't see where you're getting at about the combat style. Those options remain open. And he still has spell capability.

And ye gods... he can keep his entire party from being tracked. That's not a trivial ability.

[Papa-DRB]

LazarX wrote:

And given that the only ability he's giving up is favored enemy, I don't see where you're getting at about the combat style. Those options remain open. And he still has spell capability.

He gives up combat style feats. Look at "Live in Comfort" (2nd paragraph) at this LINK.

-- david
Papa.DRB

[Bobson]

Papa-DRB wrote:

LazarX wrote:

And given that the only ability he's giving up is favored enemy, I don't see where you're getting at about the combat style. Those options remain open. And he still has spell capability.

He gives up combat style feats. Look at "Live in Comfort" (2nd paragraph) at this LINK.

-- david
Papa.DRB

....

GAH that's a horrible archetype for a PC. I hadn't actually looked at it before.

It's basically "You give up just about everything a standard ranger gets, and in exchange you just win on Survival checks and initiative." It's decent for a NPC ranger or a cohort, but taking it as a PC would be equivalent to playing a 13-starting-Int wizard. Doable, but vastly underpowered.

[Brotato]

Bobson wrote:

Papa-DRB wrote:

LazarX wrote:

And given that the only ability he's giving up is favored enemy, I don't see where you're getting at about the combat style. Those options remain open. And he still has spell capability.

He gives up combat style feats. Look at "Live in Comfort" (2nd paragraph) at this LINK.

-- david
Papa.DRB

....

GAH that's a horrible archetype for a PC. I hadn't actually looked at it before.

It's basically "You give up just about everything a standard ranger gets, and in exchange you just win on Survival checks and initiative." It's decent for a NPC ranger or a cohort, but taking it as a PC would be equivalent to playing a 13-starting-Int wizard. Doable, but vastly underpowered.

If you're going into Horizon Walker it becomes more attractive, but only just barely, because of that extra terrain which comes in handy for dominance stacking. You still want to hop out of it and hit Rogue after 3rd level until you can start HW.

[LazarX]

Papa-DRB wrote:

LazarX wrote:

And given that the only ability he's giving up is favored enemy, I don't see where you're getting at about the combat style. Those options remain open. And he still has spell capability.

He gives up combat style feats. Look at "Live in Comfort" (2nd paragraph) at this LINK.

-- david
Papa.DRB

If I was going to play a ranger whose primary purpose was a guide or leading a party of explorers, I would be so over this archetype as it is now. I could think of a few past scenarios, where "winning at survival and initiative" would have been killer good.

[Talonhawke]

It would be better if Terrain bond scaled instead of being a straight +2

[Redring]

If you aren't in a campaign based entirely on killing monsters for experience, this archetype has huge flavour potential, and some neat survival skills to boot. Just because something isn't as good as another class doesn't mean it's invalid as a player choice. If your DM is worth his salt, he should be using survival as a means to kick your butt just as much as gnolls and trolls.

As to the OP: Speak with your DM about having Quarry be available against any monster so long as it is in one of your favoured terrains. That should balance out just fine.

[Night Saber]

So, trying to resusrect an old thread here I have a question on the Warden.

Master of Terrain replaces the first favored enemy and states

"At 1st level, a warden selects his first favored terrain. He gains another one at 3rd level, and then every five levels thereafter (for a maximum of five favored terrains at 18th level)."

This ability in no way says that it modifies the ranger favored terrain ability of the ranger nor does the Archtype say at any time that the it replaces or modifies or interacts with the standard ranger class ability called Favored Terrain that begins at level 3. This archtype then has two different class abilities, Master of Terrain (warden archtype) and Favored Terrain (retained from Ranger).

That being said here is my question.

Strictly RAW, that would mean that starting at level 3 and every 5 levels thereafter the warden would get 2 favored terrains correct? 1 from master of terrain and 1 from favored terrain.

I am not sure if this is keeping with RAI or not but if it did get 2 favored terrains at 3rd, 8th, 13th and 18th then it might help make up for the rather steep losses of other abilities or if you took a few levels in Horizon Walker the same would be true.

For the record this archtype looses:
- All Favored Enemy (5 of them)
- All Combat Style Feats (5 of these too)
- Hunter's bond
- Quarry (due to loss of favored enemy)
- Improved Quarry (same as above)
- Master Hunter (I think you know why by now)

By comparison it only gains
- 1 or 5 extra favored terrains (depending on your interpretation)
- ability to take 10 or 20 on survival checks in his terrain
- grant a flat +2 to allies on Initiative, perception, stealth and survival checks in his terrain
- Roll twice on acrobatics, climb, fly, ride or swim in his terrain.
- Lev 20: Cannot be surprised in his terrain (For the record a level 1 divination wizard basically gets the same thing)

Thoughts?

P.S. Since I am sure someone will bring it up the portion of Master of Terrain that says "(for a maximum of five favored terrains at 18th level)" limits the number gained from that specific class ability. Afterall, if you combined this with two levels of rogue and took the RT that gives you a favored terrain and then took feats to gain extra rogue talents for more favored terrains you would end up with much more than just 5 altogether.