Hello fellow moustachioed villains,
While I am primarily a GM, I do get to play occasionally and I almost exclusively play evil characters.
I have obviously run into GMs who ABHOR evil characters. They probably have nightmares of some player playing CE as "Psychotic Stupid" in the past.
So what are some strategies you've used to convince GMs that not every person plays evil like an idiot?
How do you work an evil character into a heroic party? What is your strategy for maintaining both alignment consistency and party cohesion?
Who are some inspirational characters you consider "evil heroes" when building a character? Spawn? The Crow? The Punisher? Jackie Estacado (and the Darkness)?
Fellow GMs, do you absolutely ban evil characters from your table?
If so, why?
As a GM, I have not yet had a player try to play an evil NPC, but I wouldn't outright ban it, with the condition that the player was willing to play a character whose goals and beliefs were not going to conflict too heavily with the average party's. That means that they would need to be willing to do good stuff and other times, not do evil stuff. CE could work in this, but NE or (even better) LE would be easy enough to roleplay out.
Being evil in a good group is tough. Being evil in a neutral group is not too bad. Being evil in an evil group can be completely stupid, if the people at the table let it, but it can work fine.
A couple of evil characters:
I once played alongside a player who made an evil rogue (though once I saw the party composition [not knowing the rogue was evil], I rolled a paladin). Me being a complete noob to paladins, not knowing what doing this would mean, morally speaking, I was abusing Detect Evil, casting it on everyone, and I did so immediately on the party members, and my group being a complete noob to paladins, the GM told me he was evil. I had to break character to not confront him immediately. Then the second rogue of the party saw him swipe something that same (first) session, and everyone was watching him out of the corner of our eyes.
He got super tired of it, swapped to CN, and just played a different concept.
Although the character ended up CN and honestly rather boring (though this was due mostly to the campaign we ended up in), in the process of creating him, who is actually this forum name's namesake, I put together an evil concept that found reasons why each other party member was necessary for some other, evil goal. I had approached the DM (the person who played the cleric just below this, so I knew he'd go for it), asking if I could somehow be wrapped into the story as a double agent for some BBEG, working to somehow cultivate the party members as sacrifices. We ended up working into a more ambiguous goal that was more, "Help them succeed at whatever they're doing, and we'll figure out why you're trying to double cross them later." I was okay with this, because I was mostly interested in trying to play an evil yet friendly character in a mostly good party, to see if I could either pull it off or maybe just watch them tear him to pieces once they found out.
Unfortunately, between breaking from that game for a bit after it first got started, landing in a campaign that was just terrible for a spellthief (i.e., fighting almost solely undead/constructs, with only ONE enemy mage [which I had no part in taking down] from level 1-4), and the group dynamics messing up due to other player's character concepts, Vendis was a basically bland character.
My first DM once played an evil cleric long before I started the hobby. Playing in a homebrew setting, he worshiped an obscure, evil god who revered death and trickery. So the cleric would run around, acting like a neutral cleric, and when he went to try to heal a downed character (not necessarily always PCs), he "just barely lost them." His mentality toward the party itself was not quite so aggressive in their deaths, as he knew he needed them, but if someone started doing a little too much good, they always found themselves dead the next time they went unconscious.
As I understand it, the group playing was a very mature group, because apparently a lot of them simply applauded his acting skills and his commitment to the bit once they all found out.
The only evil aligned character I have ever played was a necromancy specialist wizard. He was absolutely enamored with necromancy and undead, and took every opportunity to study it, create it, cast it, manipulate it, command it, etc. Hence, he was very, very evil.
But, you wouldn't know it to talk to the guy.
He was extremely nice, cheerful, optimistic, and upbeat. He disliked other evil people, and other evil deeds, especially if they interfered with his personal choice of evil. He made pretty significant friendships. He even animated the deceased dwarf fighter because he missed having him around.
Just because you are evil doesn't mean you have to go around doing "evil acts" every second of every day.
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I've never played Evil in a Good group, seems likely to be disruptive, and just generally not my style. But I've certainly played in Evil games over the course of time.
My last Evil character was a male LE Drow Bard who got to be 15th level and ruler of a large country by the end of the game. Fun guy, party leader, I've talked about him quite a bit here and there on this forum.
The basic idea behind him was 'Evil Overlord done right'. The kind of guy who not only never made the mistakes on the Evil Overlord list but also never made the mistake of mistreating his personnel or otherwise doing things that were likely to result in a long-term lack of loyalty. He was an Evil monster, mind you, but due pretty much solely to his unchecked ambition, and a very smart one at that.
Loads of fun to play. :)
I am a big fan of NE and LE as they're easier to do in good groups.
You can see NE as a sort of ambitious pragmatism... the guy who's generally an okay dude but he'd sell out his best friend if the price was right. Think Jane from Firefly when he sells out the crew.
LE can be played as a sadistic vigilante. Kills bad guys, but kills them good.
Both can work in good groups. There will be tension, yes, but well RPed tension can be fun.
I find having an evil party member quite disruptive, and have yet to see it really well done. I have played evil twice though. The first was a rogue whose evilness extended to party members only through foul attitude, and was wholly wicked usually only when away from the party. The other was a cleric in all evil party of demon worshipers and that was a barrel of fun.
The problem with EVIL PC's is the players playing them usually. Can it be done? Yes my friend told me he played a LE char in one of the AP's apparently he kept one of the bad guys alive then used her to start a monestary training orphans behind the backs of the other PC's Along with a number of other plots they had no idea of.
But generally its the 'i steal the party loot' oh i dont like bob 'hands note to dm about plans to kill bob' type of Evil you run into alot that causes disruption.
Anyhow the player in my example above also DMed a game about brining a badguy played by one of the players to his epic destiny as a blackguard warlord. it was well done but all the players understood who the leader was and this kept things in check.
But its usually the petty stuff that causes the issues. Which isnt to say i havent enjoyed it myself. But the potential conflict with PC's made that char less fun by about lvl 8.
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Fellow GMs, do you absolutely ban evil characters from your table?
If so, why?
If one of the other players wants to play a paladin and/or the general feel of the group is Good? Yes. Why is obvious. That said, I have no problem with evil as long as the players are all willing to work together to ensure that there's party cohesion. Wanna kill NPCs for no real reason(or for selfish, horrifying reasons)? Yeah, sure, we can roleplay that. Wanna screw over your fellow party members? Don't be surprised when I say you can't play that character anymore.
As the trope says, sometimes even evil has loved ones. If you're willing to include the rest of the party on the list of people your character respects and treats with some dignity, then I'm willing to give it a shot.
How do you work an evil character into a heroic party? What is your strategy for maintaining both alignment consistency and party cohesion?
Common goals, mutual respect and a bit of work outside the game to ensure that we can find ways for our characters to work together. I tend to prefer LE in any good party that doesn't tend towards chaotic simply because I feel that it's not too hard to find justification for LE to work with others simply out of mutual self-interest.
The entire party in my current Carrion Crown game is Neutral and Evil. The players all agreed that if they had to fight horrors in the dark, they were embracing horrors fighting back. I was okay with this as I have been gaming with all but one of them for years. I knew they were intelligent and wise enough to only be foolish when it was warranted.
My Savage Tide game had Hantei Yasumoto, an NE Ninja, as the party face and de-facto team leader up until just before the Battle of Farshore (where he met his ancestors after being grappled to death by a house-sized Shambling Mound). He was simply cold, intolerant of screwups, very goal-oriented, and very ambitious. The rest of the party flitted about various shades of good or neutral, and of course NG Lavinia as their employer. The lack of a paladin allowed him to never actually get caught, and other than being rather merciless and preferring execution to taking prisoners he never really jumped out of the party as being "Too Evil". And he was quite willing to shank bad guys just as much as the CG demon-hunting Barbarian or LG Warforged Cavalier.
As a player, the only evil character I've run was in an all-evil party whose entire goal was scouting to prepare for a conquest from our neighboring plane. That game involved quite a lot of in-party bickering and threats (especially between the magic-hating Barbarian and my nihilstically-egotistical Tharizdunite Sorcerer) but we all had a common goal and were unified under the command of our party leader (a noble from our world) and had quite a lot of fun along the way.
Interestingly, none of our evil characters have ever had mustaches. Someone tried to convince Yasumoto to grow a Fu Manchu but he never went through with it.
As a rule I don't let people play evil characters unless I am running an evil campaign. Usually (about 90% of the time) if a player wants to play an evil character in a good game they are really looking for an in game excuse to do bad things to their fellow PCs. I would make an exception if the person asking was someone I played with and knew their style and I trusted they could do very well role playing the character.
Once a gaming friend convinced me to play an evil character... and they were shocked at the results. I was a champion of the people loved by everyone. What most never saw was the ruthless way I dealt with my enemies when no one else could see. One bad guy just vanished from the game world and no one could figure out where he went. I fed him to his own monsters but no one had to know that. And part of the reason for showering my community with gifts was to have a safe haven in case the authorities figured out I was up to no good.
LE and CG are my favorite alignments to play. It honestly depends on the rest of the party's alignment. Personally, I think that your group should play black crusade to get a feel for how evil is supposed to feel like because the setting implements it a little better.
I think of Dexter (from the TV Series) as LE. What a great smart nuanced character he is.
As long as the goals of the group and the villain PC are aligned I don't see why it can't work. It sounds like a lot of fun.
Rastlin was evil and he worked with a team of goodie-goodies.
If things get out of hand and the presence or activities of the villain PC cause a divide in the party the GM can take the character from the Player and use it as a GM controlled villain for the remained of the campaign. A good GM should thank the player for creating a rich villain that the group hates with a passion. :)
I've seen this happen and honestly it was one of the best villains I ever fought against. The players had a rich history with that character and as a GM it's hard to create that. It would obviously be a loss for the player playing the villain but hopefully they can be pleased that they made the game that much better.
-MD
I think Raistin was neutral through most of that series. He did become evil for the second series but at that point he was off on his own and chasing his own evil plot.
It all depends on what kind of Evil acts the PC chooses to indulge in.
I think Raistin was neutral through most of that series. He did become evil for the second series but at that point he was off on his own and chasing his own evil plot.
Good point Aranna. It's been years since I looked at those books. Lol, maybe the player who was playing Rastlin just got caught by the other players in the second book. (Imagining if the Dragonlance series was a campaign)
But Rastlin's history with the party made him a stronger more memorable villain in any case.
Boy I wonder what knucklehead played Caramon...
(Imagining if the Dragonlance series was a campaign)
Actually I'm pretty sure it was, at least the first three books of it.
In answer to your last question. I do not allow evil PCs in my campaigns.
In my life, I am a social worker and I interact with some pretty bad things on a daily basis. I find that I have a different idea of what is evil as compared to alot of other people. (Most of the evil characters I have read about seem more Neutral to me than Evil.) This would create a conflict, that I just don't want to waste the time hashing out.
I also use the game as escapism and well GMing an evil PC just doesn't really allow me to do that which further strengthens my resolve to do so. In my life, evil wins out alot more than I like and I would rather have an adventure where good, eventually (it could be a couple of TPKs away) triumphs over evil.
I have nothing against people who want to play an evil PC and I encourage to find a game that does so. It just won't be mine. :)
I think Raistin was neutral through most of that series. He did become evil for the second series but at that point he was off on his own and chasing his own evil plot.Good point Aranna. It's been years since I looked at those books. Lol, maybe the player who was playing Rastlin just got caught by the other players in the second book. (Imagining if the Dragonlance series was a campaign)
But Rastlin's history with the party made him a stronger more memorable villain in any case.
Boy I wonder what knucklehead played Caramon...
It was a campaign. It was played by a bunch of AD&D developers/editors. I think they even listed who played in the campaign but the only one I remember was Roger Moore who played Tasslehof the Kender. The characters in the book are actually based on how the real people played their characters.
Speaking of Dragonlance the Knights of Takhisis is what I always think of when people ask how/why evil people work together. The group was lawful evil and were able to work towards a common goal. At least until Takhisis vanished, then they kinda fell apart.
Personally I think having an evil person in the group can work just fine if the player can handle it. Chaotic evil is a little harder to justify working with groups that have a majority of good alignments, but lawful and even neutral evil isnt really that hard.