So I've finished my campaign as a GM and the next one is starting with a new GM (yeah I can play!!!) So I got my character done but my friend is new to PF. He was an old D&D player from first edition (yeah I know) and a big shadowrun GM (AKA I'm always paranoid).
He is the kind of guy to build a rogue based to disarm trap but hate fighting, or at the most the guy that will give the final blow in a fight. I'm looking at possibilities, not complete build to know what would be the best form him.
He is not an optimizer (forget about dumb stats)
We play with ARG (base race are forbidden for campaign reasons)+ he is the kind of guy to pick a race just because it looks cool
20 points
No starting gear (same reason as race)
Start level 4
Rogue only (no prestige or multiclass)
Archetype allowed (I know there is one for trap, just don't have my book with me)
Team if it can help: Wizard (me) controller, rogue (more like a fighting one), ranger (sword and shield with no spells), and a Melee divine (paly or oracle or cleric, still not sure) and him (rogue based on traps)
I'm asking here if someone can give me advice for him so he can still be useful in a fight, without being always present?
play a rogue... and dont fight.
Soak his feats into archery. As a controller wizard, you will be depriving people of their dex all the time, and make him useful by virtue of sneak attacks.
If he sinks both feats into getting PBS and Rapid Shot at lv1 he is more or less free to do whatever later on.
if you just want the rogue-role filled I suggest playing as an Archeologist, it is a Bard archetype
It is very similar to rogue, it gets rogue tricks and is able to disable traps as one, it doesn't get sneak attack dices, and as thus it is great for your non-fighter rogue concept
As an Archeologist he has no bardic performance abilities, but retains spellcasting, so as a non-fighter it can also help out with some minor spells, and spells that can be useful both in and out of combat (illusion spells, charm person, healing spells, and similar)
The class is basically equal with a spellcaster Indiana Jones
Orc Boyz wrote: play a rogue... and dont fight. Thank you for your comments...
Kamelguru wrote: Soak his feats into archery. As a controller wizard, you will be depriving people of their dex all the time, and make him useful by virtue of sneak attacks.
If he sinks both feats into getting PBS and Rapid Shot at lv1 he is more or less free to do whatever later on.
Not a bad idea, might be pretty good actually. What kind of spell would allow sneak attack from him?
if he doesn't want to actually be a damager he could have some kind of reach weapon and use it to aid other. Then put all his talents into non combat things
MAybe Fast Picks, or fast stealth, or befuddling strike, canny observer or cunning trigger, quick disarm, quick trap smith.
MAke him a kobold, cause i think they get trap bonuses, put points into Dex, and int and wis. Arm him with range weapons, maybe take exotic prof net, something like that
After racial bonus you have
STR 6
DEX 18
Con 8
Int 14
Wis 14
CHA 10
Kobold gets traf crafting bonuses and can if he want take the ricial favored class bonus of +.5 to trap finding per level
make sure he has a trait that gives him survival, then at level 5 you can give him learn ranger trap
Just a thought
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/learn-ranger-trap
Tell him he'll be bored in combat. Combat usually eats up more table time than anything else. This is still a wargame at heart. Even a band-aid cleric has more fun than a rogue that just skulks in the corner waiting for the fight to end.
If he doesn't want to hit stuff point him at the Archaeologist Bard. It's arguably a better trap handler than a rogue (it can get rogue talents so trap spotter is available, and it has quick disable for free as well as always having a take 10 option) Disable Device as a class skill is available through a trait or cosmopolitan. The Archaeologist has the bard spell list for something productive to do in combat and if your friend doesn't want to fight sneak attack and most of the remotely worthwhile rogue talents are useless so getting half as many isn't much of a price to pay for spellcasting.
If it must be Rogue as base class, he could choose Burglar or Trap Smith archetype for the concept, but I really think an Archeologist would be a better choice.
The Inquisitor can be an awesome sneak, with lot's of tricks up his sleeve. A Heretic Inquisitor of Irori can have x2 wisdom to stealth.
Grippli, Duergar, Archon-Blooded Aasimar, or Tengu are decent race choices.
Grippli ninja *sighs* wish my DM would allow it. It would be ever so much fun.
Greg
Grippli are pretty awesome. Prehensile tongues for the win.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Grippli are pretty awesome. Prehensile tongues for the win. They pale in comparison to the possibilities afforded by the proud Boggard people.
// Bump to the assist another idea.
Foxdie13 wrote: Kamelguru wrote: Soak his feats into archery. As a controller wizard, you will be depriving people of their dex all the time, and make him useful by virtue of sneak attacks.
If he sinks both feats into getting PBS and Rapid Shot at lv1 he is more or less free to do whatever later on.
Not a bad idea, might be pretty good actually. What kind of spell would allow sneak attack from him? Anything that stuns, paralyzes, deprives the enemy of their sight or otherwise make them unaware of his attacks. Like Color Spray, Glitterdust, Hold Person/Monster, Greater Invisibility on him, etc.
Personally, I would go for a rogue, with False Casting as a feat (from Magic of the Inner Sea) and either a dip into wizard/sorcerer (which you said wasnt possible) or max UMD.
Trick everyone into thinking you are an super powerful wizard. Spend all of your money on wands, and "cast" higher level spells than the wizard, just to see his face.
I prefer the versatility of the Inquisitor.
blackbloodtroll wrote: I prefer the versatility of the Inquisitor. Yes, but his friend is asking after a rogue. Inquisitor was not mentioned.
Well, he is coming from a background of less options. I suspect "rogue-like" is more appropriate, at least I believe so.
Thanks a lot everyone. So far It gives me lots of idea.
One thing I mentionned is the only class possible would be rogue. MAYBE (call me) archeologist would pass, but like I said he is a dnd player back from first edition so convincing him that others archetype or class could do the job is kind of hard.
So far the range rogue with trap smith is pretty solid, archeologist indiana jones style is good too.
If anyone got other idea, would be appreciated. But its helping me a lot
You question is actually the opposite of what is a much tougher question - "How do I build a Rogue that can be effective/compete in combat." If the player, the GM and the rest of the group are cool with essentially a non-combatant, the person can play anything that still has Trapfinding and doesn't have a penalty to Dex. Actually, not trying to be effective in combat allows for all kinds of character concepts that often clash with the "typical" Two-Weapon Fighting, flanking, sneak attacker because it demands so many feats and talents. Just browse through the various Rogue archetypes and see if one sounds interesting.
this is something you should be doing with your friend, not us. we dont know what he likes, and the guidelines you posted arnt really enough to let us make this guy for you.
you asked for a non combat character that can disarm traps. he should just play a normal rogue, and choose when to join in combat. joining in combat is a choice, if he wants to hide, there really isnt a build for that. if he wants to invest resouces into improving hiding, thats not something this bord can really help with.
i guess i misunderstand what you are asking us for.
If you want a noncombat rogue and he plays anything but a kobold, hit him with a rolled up newspaper until he learns better!
Honestly, craven trapspringers...its just NECESSARY to be a kobold. Not to mention severe kobold love in the community is outweighed only by goblin love.
Question, OP: Does he actually WANT to be no good in combat? Or does he just want to put all his resources into non-combat things? Because if it's the latter, a "brute" rogue is really feat-nonintensive. Just crank up the strength a bit and give him a two-handed weapon to make sneak attacks with. He can still have a high dex (and a million skill points), and put all of his feats and rogue talents into noncombat stuff. Check out Rogue Eidolon's Guide to Rogues if you're interested.
Sample point buys if a) he doesn't care about charisma:
Str 18 (including human/halfelf/halforc bonus)
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8
or b) if he wants to be the party face or use UMD
Str 15 (boost at 4th)
Dex 16 (with human bonus)
Con 12
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 14
With a Rogue's skill points, a Charisma boost of +2 is plenty to be a social face.
Reynard_the_fox wrote: Question, OP: Does he actually WANT to be no good in combat? Or does he just want to put all his resources into non-combat things? Because if it's the latter, a "brute" rogue is really feat-nonintensive. Just crank up the strength a bit and give him a two-handed weapon to make sneak attacks with. He can still have a high dex (and a million skill points), and put all of his feats and rogue talents into noncombat stuff. Check out Rogue Eidolon's Guide to Rogues if you're interested.
Sample point buys if a) he doesn't care about charisma:
Str 18 (including human/halfelf/halforc bonus)
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8
or b) if he wants to be the party face or use UMD
Str 15 (boost at 4th)
Dex 16 (with human bonus)
Con 12
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 14
With a Rogue's skill points, a Charisma boost of +2 is plenty to be a social face.
Maybe I'll clarify: he does not WANT to be ineffective in combat, just that he is not gonna be in combat a lot, he is the kind of guy to join half fight, so even if he takes all feat and skills to be good in combat, it will be a waste. BUT if he can do good and be the skill monkey at the same time, its just better.
I'll read the guide, that's a good idea.
So is he roleplaying his rogue as cowardly, calculating, or too good to get his hands dirty?
There are only two feats for trapfinding. Both of them are skill focus. With half his level to perceive and disarm traps he doesn't need them if he has the right stats and racial bonuses.
Build a dex based combat rogue and as long as you don't archetype away trapfinding the trap handling will come naturally.
The twin shortsword finesse blender with piranha strike is naturally a good trap handler as long as he puts points into perception and disable device.
I'd suggest Ratfolk or Tengu for race. +2 dex and +2 into a useful mental stat and +2 to perception and at least +2 to stealth. Tengu will do better in combat with medium size weapons and no strength penalty and see a little better with their wis bonus. They also move faster, so you won't slow the party down as much checking for traps. Ratfolk are tougher with a +1 size bonus to AC and no con penalty and stealthier with a +4 size bonus to stealth instead of the Tengu's +2 racial. Ratfolk also have darkvision so you won't ever need a lamp to scout ahead.
You could do a kobold, but I think the -4 to strength is nigh-crippling. Even with a lot of small sized equipment weighing half as much you may have a hard time carrying your gear. And you won't be doing any non-sneak attack damage. They also are dazzled in bright lite. Most traps aren't in brightly lit areas, but it's something to consider. They also have a constitution penalty like the Tengu.
Goblins are the munchkin race for the job, but the RP is ugly. They aren't really suited to adventuring with non-goblins. They get small size, fast movement, a total of +8 to stealth, and their stat modifiers get you +4 dex with the only meaningful penalty (unless he wants to UMD) the -2 strength all small races seem to get.
For the archaeologist, which I think is better if he wants to sit out combat, I'd suggest Asimar if possible. They're the only ARG race I can find that has a charisma bonus without a constitution or wisdom penalty. Barring that Ratfolk have no bad stat penalties. The archaeologist may well want skill focus in disable device, and then wants lingering performance, extra performance, and possibly a spell focus in illusion or enchantment, both of which are strong points of the bardic spell list. Hobgoblins would also be viable if the roleplay issues could be overcome, but theirs may well be worse than the Goblin's.
Hudax wrote: So is he roleplaying his rogue as cowardly, calculating, or too good to get his hands dirty? definitely calculating + making sure the team is doing fine
Kamelguru wrote: Soak his feats into archery. As a controller wizard, you will be depriving people of their dex all the time, and make him useful by virtue of sneak attacks.
If he sinks both feats into getting PBS and Rapid Shot at lv1 he is more or less free to do whatever later on.
I'd say don't do RS at level 1. Even with PBS, the -2 is problematic as a 3/4 BAB class and there's already a few Melee fighters so he'll be shooting into Melee most of the time. Go with Precice shot
RS is better for level 3 or 5, when the penalty isn't so bad.
Sniping could be good for him, stealth, shoot w/SA, repeat.
Then he could ude a trick and feat to get RS and MS back to back. At +10 BAB you can toss out R/ MS full attack doing tons of sneak damage with the other rogue and ranger flanking a target with range flank, but that's a long way off.
So archer rogue could work well with the party, and the other rogue could even afford to drop trapfinding for something else if it really wanted
Also look into the feat Gang Up. A friend of mine went crazy with throwing stars as a ninja - 5 sneak attacks in one turn at level 9.
Reynard_the_fox wrote: Also look into the feat Gang Up. A friend of mine went crazy with throwing stars as a ninja - 5 sneak attacks in one turn at level 9. wow thats solid. IT cost 2 feat so its a hard price to pay but after a few level that would be nice
Foxdie13 wrote: Reynard_the_fox wrote: Question, OP: Does he actually WANT to be no good in combat? Or does he just want to put all his resources into non-combat things? Because if it's the latter, a "brute" rogue is really feat-nonintensive. Just crank up the strength a bit and give him a two-handed weapon to make sneak attacks with. He can still have a high dex (and a million skill points), and put all of his feats and rogue talents into noncombat stuff. Check out Rogue Eidolon's Guide to Rogues if you're interested.
Sample point buys if a) he doesn't care about charisma:
Str 18 (including human/halfelf/halforc bonus)
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8
or b) if he wants to be the party face or use UMD
Str 15 (boost at 4th)
Dex 16 (with human bonus)
Con 12
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 14
With a Rogue's skill points, a Charisma boost of +2 is plenty to be a social face.
Maybe I'll clarify: he does not WANT to be ineffective in combat, just that he is not gonna be in combat a lot, he is the kind of guy to join half fight, so even if he takes all feat and skills to be good in combat, it will be a waste. BUT if he can do good and be the skill monkey at the same time, its just better.
I'll read the guide, that's a good idea.
in this case an Archeologist is ideal, he either joins up in time to be able to detect traps, or comes after the hurt from traps and enemies to cast heal spells and similar, and if he comes in the middle of the fight he can still be useful.
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