|
Player of mine asked for input on his spell selection with his sorc. he's in a party with a conjuration wizard, so he is NOT the primary arcanist. He's more of a trap finder, roguish type (without sneak attack). he's got magical lineage dragon's breath, and he's gonna have empower, intensify and quicken spell. just keep in mind he is not going to be required to cover the party's utility caster, so he took stuff he could use, or debuff the enemy with, not stuff like haste. I'll give him any feedback you offer. also, he's planning on getting a ring of invisibility, hence not having it on his spell list. Thanks.
Spells:
1: 0- Message, Acid Splash, Read magic, Detect Magic
1- Grease, Hydraulic Push
2: 0- Mage Hand
3: 1- Silent Image
2- Aid (bloodline)
4: 0- Prestidigitation
2- Pilfering Hand
5: 1- Vanish
2- Flaming Sphere (retrain to Burning Arc at 12)
3- Remove Disease (bloodline)
6: 0- Open/Close
3- Spiked Pit
7: 1- Magic Missile
2- Levitate
3- Explosive Runes (bloodline), Dispel Magic
8: 0- Mending
4- Obsidian Flow
9: 2- Mirror Image
3- Fireball
4- Dragon's Breath (bloodline), Dimension Door
10: 0- Light
5- Overland Flight
11: 2- Glitterdust
3- Burrow (retrain for slow at level 16)
4- Ball Lightning
5- Rock to Mud (bloodline), Prying Eyes
12: 6- Greater Dispel Magic
13: 4- Confusion or improved invisibility
5- Wall of Stone
6- Guards and Wards (bloodline), Cold Ice Strike
14: 7- Project Image
15: 5- Telekinesis
6- Programmed Image
7- Delayed Blast Fireball (bloodline), Limited Wish
16: 8- Wall of Lava
17: 7- Grasping Hand
8- Form of the Dragon III (bloodline), Moment of Prescience
18: 9- Time Stop
19: 8- Maze
9- Imprisonment (bloodline), Summon Monster IX
Since you asked ...
No see invisibility, and glitterdust isn't on the list until level 11 ... any spells requiring a target versus invisible enemies are going to be unusable. You can fix this by having a wand or scrolls handy, but ... I'd recommend glitterdust coming a lot sooner than 11th. If nothing else, it's nice to occasionally blind an enemy -- that's quite a debuff.
Glitterdust is so OP you can't not take it immediately.
Where are the Shadow Evocations and Conjurations? Very Versatile Spells! They can give you a lot of other spells. Make one of your Shadow spells a spell perfection and he Rocks!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Count Duck has a good idea too.
One important thing to remember, Xavier: just because one person in the party has a really important spell doesn't mean that person will always be able to cast it. The wizard may lose his ability to cast spells (silenced, unconscious, what have you), and you will suddenly be QUITE glad you took it. Same goes for Dispel Magic, so I'm glad it's on your list.
|
|
Well, i'm also the trap guy. So i can find and disable regular traps, but no trapfinding, so i have to use dispel magic for magical ones. The only reason I havn't jumped all over the shadow spells, is because we're playing in age of worms, and they're more or less useless against undead. I'm considering using spell perfection on fireball so i can do fancy stuff with it. and as i said before, i'm buying a ring of invis, so i dont need the spell itself on my list.
the biggest problem is, i have absolutely no idea what i would take off the list to put in the shadow stuff, and i'm not sure which shadow spells to put in. my higher level spells are so tight i dunno if that's even possible, and my fourths are already highly contested. i could drop confusion for shadow conjuration, but i'm slightly loathe to do that. here's my revised spell list. and fyi, we will be getting to 20, and spending a decent amount of time there, so pay attention to the higher level stuff too. another worry of mine is i have too many fire spells, though that's hard to avoid.
Spells:
1: 0- Message, Acid Splash, Read magic, Detect Magic
1- Grease, Hydraulic Push
2: 0- Mage Hand
3: 1- Silent Image
2- Aid (bloodline)
4: 0- Prestidigitation
2- Pilfering Hand
5: 1- Vanish
2- Flaming Sphere (retrain to Burning Arc at 8)
3- Remove Disease (bloodline)
6: 0- Open/Close
3- Spiked Pit
7: 1- Magic Missile
2- Glitterdust
3- Explosive Runes (bloodline), Dispel Magic
8: 0- Mending
4- Ball Lightning
9: 2- Levitate
3- Fireball
4- Dragon's Breath (bloodline), Dimension Door
10: 0- Light
5- Overland Flight
11: 2- Mirror Image
3- Burrow (retrain for slow at level 16)
4- Shadow Conjuration
5- Rock to Mud (bloodline), Prying Eyes
12: 6- Greater Dispel Magic
13: 4- Stone Shape
5- Wall of Stone
6- Guards and Wards (bloodline), Cold Ice Strike
14: 7- Project Image
15: 5- Telekinesis
6- Programmed Image
7- Delayed Blast Fireball (bloodline), Limited Wish
16: 8- Wall of Lava
17: 7- Grasping Hand
8- Form of the Dragon III (bloodline), Moment of Prescience
18: 9- Time Stop
19: 8- Maze
9- Imprisonment (bloodline), Summon Monster IX
20: 9- Prismatic Sphere
The major problem in this build that I see is that you really lack protection spells : only Vanish at level 5 & Mirror Image at level 11.
As a sorcerer, your known spells are limited, so you must have a few offensive spells, some utilitary spells and protection spells. All must be really mandatory for your build or very polyvalent.
An example : Burrow is a very limited spell. At the same level, Blink let you pass through walls and offers you great protection from mundane & magical attacks.
Levitate is really bad when Fly is available so taking it at level 9 is a poor idea. And there are far more interesting 5th-level spells than Overland Flight when you are level 10 !!
|
|
The character will have earth glide at level 15, has a high stealth, and decent AC. i'll take mirror image sooner, but my third level spells are pretty darn tight. and overland flight is great, as it lasts all day. it saves actions in combat, and invalidates the need for fly. levitate is there as a utility spell, not a defensive spell, as not everyone in the party can move vertically at will.
What protection spells would you suggest in that case? I've got mirror image, i'll have a ring of invis soon (next session or two), and i'll have all day flight by level 10 (we're currently six). by level 15 i can earth glide at will. Thanks for this and any further input!
on a separate note, part of me worries i have too many fire spells. Though, it is extremely difficult to avoid them. I'm tempted to change out cold ice strike for sirocco, as it is a bigger area and is muti-threat, but once again, it does fire damage. I'll have rods of elemental spell, as i have craft rod, but it limits what i can do and my actions. Thoughts?
You cant see magical traps as a non-rogue! The Fireball will still be going off!
|
|
Yeah, you can. All it says is you cannot disarm magic traps without trapfinding. you can still find them just fine.
As per SRD:
"Magic: Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true.
A successful Perception check (DC 25 + spell level) detects a magic trap before it goes off.
Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level × 1.5).
Magic traps may be disarmed by a character with the trapfinding class feature with a successful Disable Device skill check (DC 25 + spell level). Other characters have no chance to disarm a magic trap with a Disable Device check."
AND
"Trapfinding
A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps."
No where in there does it say someone without trapfinding cannot FIND magic traps. Just that they cannot DISARM them. Now let's not derail this thread please. :)
Glad I hit "refresh" before posting. Xavier is absolutely correct.
Greg
@ Xavier : Sure Overland Flight is great but it has a personal range, and Levitate will be useless for your party. If you take Fly, you can make all your party fly, and it's only a 3rd level spell.
Some good protection spells : Protection from Evil (or Magic Circle against Evil), Invisibility, Resist Energy (or Protection from energy), Mirror Image, Blink (or Displacement), Stoneskin, Contingency, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience.
You didn't tell us the race of the character but if he is human, don't forget that there's an alternate favored class option that allows to have more known spells.
|
|
He's a kobold! >..> Yes i know, shush. Alright, Hm... I'll try and work in a few more defensive spells, and see what i can come up with. Then i'll re post. Thanks for the examples Noir. My thought was that i could get scrolls of contingency. Since it's not something i should (ideally) be casting every day. It was either programmed image or contingency for my spell list. We have a wizard in the party, so he can write me scrolls of it. and i'm purchasing a ring of invisibility very soon. As for protection from evil, I tend to carry a wand of pro evil. It wont help much against summoned monsters with SR, but it'll stop the mind control. i'm essentially trying to use magic items to cover what holes in my spell list that I can. at this point it's either stoneskin, or shadow conjuration. as for fly, it's either fly or slow, and Slow has the benefit of being a non mind-effect will save, as well as a nasty debuff. both have their obvious benefits. And i dropped levitate for resist energy. I admit that was a hole in my defenses which as been fixed. Here's a revised spell list.
1: 0- Message, Acid Splash, Read magic, Detect Magic
1- Grease, Hydraulic Push
2: 0- Mage Hand
3: 1- Silent Image
2- Aid (bloodline)
4: 0- Prestidigitation
2- Pilfering Hand
5: 1- Vanish
2- Flaming Sphere (retrain to Burning Arc at 8)
3- Remove Disease (bloodline)
6: 0- Open/Close
3- Spiked Pit
7: 1- Magic Missile
2- Mirror Image
3- Explosive Runes (bloodline), Dispel Magic
8: 0- Mending
4- Ball Lightning
9: 2- Glitterdust
3- Fireball
4- Dragon's Breath (bloodline), Dimension Door
10: 0- Light
5- Overland Flight
11: 2- Resist Energy
3- Slow
4- Stoneskin
5- Rock to Mud (bloodline), Prying Eyes
12: 6- Greater Dispel Magic
13: 4- Stone Shape
5- Wall of Stone
6- Guards and Wards (bloodline), Chain Lightning
14: 7- Project Image
15: 5- Telekinesis
6- Programmed Image
7- Delayed Blast Fireball (bloodline), waves of exhaustion
16: 8- Wall of Lava
17: 7- Grasping Hand
8- Form of the Dragon III (bloodline), Moment of Prescience
18: 9- Time Stop
19: 8- Maze
9- Imprisonment (bloodline), Summon Monster IX
20: 9- Prismatic Sphere
Contingency works better when your caster level is high, so using scrolls is not so great.
Why do you take Fireball when you get Dragon's Breath ? It does more damage and is more versatile, plus you will know DBF later, you could also drop Chain Lightning who is a bit weak at level 6. Intensify seems a bit useless as I see only 2 spells that use it.
|
|
Well, fireball is what i have for spell perfection and magical lineage. i have several metamagic feats that will make fireball a cheap and effective damage machine and metamagic option. it also doesnt require me to be in melee like dragon's breath does. i'm also probably going to drop chain lightening for cold ice strike or contingency. most likely contingency, unless you think i should drop programmed image for it. dragon's breath is versatile on it's own, but fireball is the best recipient for spell mastery and magical lineage that i can see. it hurts to lose shadow conjuration, but i'll take it for the DR of stoneskin. intensify also works on fireball, dragon's breath and burning arc. but i'm not taking intensify until level 19, just as a cap-off, until them i'll use a rod. Dazing spell, quicken, and empower are gonna be my workhorse metamagics for fireball, and other spells.
so i'll change out chain lightening for contingency. here are my feats to help you understand my build a bit better. i'll have earth glide by level 15, hence the deep earth bloodline to get me tremorsense, and the tripping power is really nice.
1- Skill Focus: Dungeoneering
3- Great Fortitude
5- Eldritch Heritage: Deep Earth
7- Spell Penetration
S Improved Initiative
9- Empower Spell
11- Improved Eldritch heritage: Deep Earth
13- Dazing Spell
14S Silent Spell
15- Quicken Spell
17- Spell Perfection: Fireball
19- Intensify Spell
S Defensive Combat Training
If you're the scout/trapfinding guy, consider clairaudience/clairvoyance instead of slow. Finding out what's on the other side of the wall is hugely useful.
|
|
well, he IS a kobold. and he's actually a priest of Aasterinian, the messenger of the dragon gods. i'm using it as a 'counts as' sort of thing. He's a sorc but fancies himself a priest. secondly, i was worried about that myself honestly. the problem is, in age of worms, the campaign we're playing in, about 75% of our enemies are undead. So i have mostly stayed away from stuff like enervation, confusion and other spells i would normally take. Slow is valuable, as it's will and not mind affecting. glitterdust is will, and not mind affecting. the enemies are 90% immune to fort save spells, as that stuff has to effect objects as well. so i end up shoe-horned into lots of reflex, which i took dazing spell at 13th level, letting me control the battlefield with reflex saves, which undead are notoriously bad at. using the daze effect, which they are not immune to. I'd like to make a more well-rounded list with confusion, mass suggestion, enervation, maybe some necromancy save or lose type stuff. but knowing a LOT of the enemies are undead kinda makes those spells feel useless. there ARE other types of enemies, some outsiders, some magical beasts, and having SOME spells that are good against them would help. i just dont know which spells to trade out, and at what levels. spells get pretty tight at later levels. What would you suggest i take out and replace with some fort/will saves? i'm all ears and totally open to suggestions. why not give me a list of one or two spells per spell level that are fort/will saves that you think would fit the character idea and are good, if you'd like to help. :)
The theme is essentially that he's a priest of his goddess, and is an upsetter of the status quo, trickster, and misfit. He believes firmly that he is a priest, but was blessed with arcane magic, not divine. He carries himself like one, and acts like it. The spells are supposed to represent the fact that he's taking the 'rogue' slot in the party. Sneaky, blasty, tricky and earth-based. hence stone shape, pits, transmute rock to mud, wall of stone, etc. he'll be getting earth glide at level 15. He's not being required to cover the job of the party arcanist, and he is not really one to take spells that are for everyone else. He gets no benefit from haste, so he doesn't have it, for example. and the party is fine with that since the wizard can handle it. I think that's about it, I hope that helps you get into his head a little bit Pad.
In a campaign with lots of undeads, you must have Disintegrate (Fort ST but works on undeads). On the other hand, remember that often undeads are immune to cold.
Chill Touch is a very good option that works at all levels, as Command/Halt Undead. Considere the Persistent Spell feat to increase your efficiency.
Intensify will come too late if you take it at level 19 => this feat is used to keep damage-capped spells like fireball useful after you reach the cap (level 11+). If you take it at level 19, you will have a weak fireball for 8 levels.
|
|
eh, undead have pretty strong fort saves now, considering they get to add cha to it. especially if they have levels. however, yeah. trying to stick to the theme of a rougish earth-based guy. and well, i say if extra spells are wanted, than humans can be played. i'm not teching for anti-undead. but i'll do my best to modify.
|
|
alright, here we go. I've shifted stuff around and expanded my spell list. Command undead, boneshatter (it targets fort, exhausts living and still does damage to undead. though about boneshatter.. it says objects made of bone, take 50% more damage. i know skeletons would, but since undead are technically objects, would all undead with skeletons in them take 50% more? i also have disintegrate or circle of death, i couldnt decide. though i can drop that for programmed image. as for intensify and spell perfection: fireball. the reason for that is so that a single blast spell can service me for my entire career as my sole blast. Essentially, I want fireball to more or less be my go-to spell for damage in general circumstances. i can intensify it for free, use lesser rods on it (dazing, elemental, persist, lingering), and for a 5th level spell i can intensify and empower it (not to mention stack quicken onto it once i hit 17 and get spell perfection). so noir, this look better? also, i THINK empower is a good choice with this build, but i'm not 100% sure.
1- Skill Focus: Dungeoneering
3- Great Fortitude
5- Eldritch Heritage: Deep Earth
7- Spell Penetration
S Improved Initiative
9- Empower Spell
11- Intensify Spell
13- Improved Eldritch heritage: Deep Earth
14S Silent Spell
15- Quicken Spell
17- Spell Perfection: Fireball
19- Persistant Spell
S Defensive Combat Training
Spells:
1: 0- Message, Acid Splash, Read magic, Detect Magic
1- Grease, Hydraulic Push
2: 0- Mage Hand
3: 1- Silent Image
2- Aid (bloodline)
4: 0- Prestidigitation
2- Pilfering Hand
5: 1- Vanish
2- Command Undead
3- Remove Disease (bloodline)
6: 0- Open/Close
3- Spiked Pit
7: 1- Magic Missile
2- Mirror Image
3- Explosive Runes (bloodline), Dispel Magic
8: 0- Mending
4- Boneshatter
9: 2- Glitterdust
3- Fireball
4- Dragon's Breath (bloodline), Dimension Door
10: 0- Light
5- Overland Flight
11: 2- Resist Energy
3- Slow
4- Stoneskin
5- Rock to Mud (bloodline), Prying Eyes
12: 6- Disintigrate or circle of death or programmed image
13: 4- Stone Shape
5- Wall of Stone
6- Guards and Wards (bloodline), Contingency
14: 7- Project Image
15: 5- Icy Prison
6- Greater Dispel Magic
7- Delayed Blast Fireball (bloodline), waves of exhaustion
16: 8- Wall of Lava
17: 7- Grasping Hand
8- Form of the Dragon III (bloodline), Moment of Prescience
18: 9- Time Stop
19: 8- Maze
9- Imprisonment (bloodline), Summon Monster IX
20: 9- Prismatic Sphere