... Though I'm not sure if it'll actually work well. I have a few questions that I wanted to ask before I begin messing around.
1- When using kinetic blade, will feats like power attack or piranha strike work to increase the damage dealt? I know that it won't increase the damage of energy blasts since they're touch attacks, but what about the physical attacks?
2- when taking weapon focus, can I pick "kinetic blast", or does it have to go down to "kinetic energy blast"/"kinetic physical blast" or am I even more limited to something like "air blast"?
3- is there any way to do two-weapon-fighting with this? By my reading it seems that there is not, but I would like to get the extra attacks if possible.
4- Is there a way to extend the duration of the blade for a full round without taking kinetic whip? I would like to be able to threaten attacks of opportunity if I'm going to be mixing it up in melee.
5- Am I right in thinking that earth is the best element to take for this? The DR just seems really good, especially if you're going to be damaging yourself for your regular abilities.
6- What about elemental fist? I'm not too knowledgeable about how many unarmed/natural attacks you can stack up, so how does it shape up against elemental blade? By first reading it seems like you simply deal too little damage compared to a regular blast.
That's all I can think of for now, though more things may come up as I look at the options.
1) yes
2)"kinetic blast"
3) quicken Metakinesis for the blade can give you two, Or go the annihilator archetype
4) annihilator archetype I think, normally no
5) water and Aether have good defenses too, I don't think there's a clear best.
6) I feel it's too little damage, but there's an archetype that helps with it.
1) Power Attack works for physical blades. You can two-hand it for extra damage if the blade is not light/finessable. Piranha Strike will be fine if the blade is light.
2) It's Weapon Focus (kinetic blast) for kinetic blade/whip as those are different forms for blast (like extended range). It's Weapon Focus (unarmed strikes) when it's kinetic fist as that's adding extra damage another kind of attack.
3) Not really. You might be be able to do it with double metakinesis, but hardly worth it. It'll work fine with TWF a kinetic blade and a regular weapon. Or Elemental Annihilator.
4) No with kinetic blade. Yes with elemental annihilator's devastating infusion and ever-present threat.
5) "Best" is really dependent on what you want for defensive and utility talents.
6) I wouldn't bother with kinetic fist. Kinetic blade/whip would normally outperform it. Though if you have significantly better Strength than Dex/Con, have several natural attacks and Feral Combat Training for flurry, get deliquescent gloves, and monk's robes, then maybe?
Archetypes. I didn't even think about archetypes. Silly me.
Though now I have a question about flurry of devastation. Devastation infusion states that your base attack bonus is treated as equal to your kineticist level when making this attack, but does that extend to flurry of devastation? Basically, will I have a second iterative attack at 6th level or do I have to wait until 8th level?
In addition, it seems that the damage of the devastating infusion would quickly fall behind a regular kinetic blast. It states "A devastating infusion always deals an amount of damage equal to 1d8 + the elemental annihilator’s Constitution modifier, regardless of the annihilator’s class level or use of composite blasts." This tells me that a level 11 elemental annihilator using a devestating infusion would deal only 1d8 + CON, when a level 11 kineticist using a regular blast would deal 5d6 + 5 + CON. Is this worth it, given that the annihilator gains the ability to make use of vital strike and flurry of devestation?
Archetypes. I didn't even think about archetypes. Silly me.
Though now I have a question about flurry of devastation. Devastation infusion states that your base attack bonus is treated as equal to your kineticist level when making this attack, but does that extend to flurry of devastation? Basically, will I have a second iterative attack at 6th level or do I have to wait until 8th level?
In addition, it seems that the damage of the devastating infusion would quickly fall behind a regular kinetic blast. It states "A devastating infusion always deals an amount of damage equal to 1d8 + the elemental annihilator’s Constitution modifier, regardless of the annihilator’s class level or use of composite blasts." This tells me that a level 11 elemental annihilator using a devestating infusion would deal only 1d8 + CON, when a level 11 kineticist using a regular blast would deal 5d6 + 5 + CON. Is this worth it, given that the annihilator gains the ability to make use of vital strike and flurry of devestation?
Well devastating infusion is just like any other infusion, so you can choose not to use it when you feel like having extra d6's.
Flurry of devastation specifies that you use devastating infusion, so it'll be at full BAB.
But if you hold it with two hands you'd get 1.5xCon and that can add up. Especially with one or two-handed Power Attack bonus damage with full BAB. You'd also be able to apply all the archer feats or twf striker feats like rapid shot or double slice, and not to mention Combat Reflexes for AoO (no extended reach with kinetic whip though). All the extra attacks can add up just like another other melee or ranged focused character. It sucks to lose utility talents though as that's what makes kineticists fun.
Archetypes. I didn't even think about archetypes. Silly me.
Though now I have a question about flurry of devastation. Devastation infusion states that your base attack bonus is treated as equal to your kineticist level when making this attack, but does that extend to flurry of devastation? Basically, will I have a second iterative attack at 6th level or do I have to wait until 8th level?
In addition, it seems that the damage of the devastating infusion would quickly fall behind a regular kinetic blast. It states "A devastating infusion always deals an amount of damage equal to 1d8 + the elemental annihilator’s Constitution modifier, regardless of the annihilator’s class level or use of composite blasts." This tells me that a level 11 elemental annihilator using a devestating infusion would deal only 1d8 + CON, when a level 11 kineticist using a regular blast would deal 5d6 + 5 + CON. Is this worth it, given that the annihilator gains the ability to make use of vital strike and flurry of devestation?
Well devastating infusion is just like any other infusion, so you can choose not to use it when you feel like having extra d6's.
Flurry of devastation specifies that you use devastating infusion, so it'll be at full BAB.
But if you hold it with two hands you'd get 1.5xCon and that can add up. Especially with one or two-handed Power Attack bonus damage with full BAB. You'd also be able to apply all the archer feats or twf striker feats like rapid shot or double slice, and not to mention Combat Reflexes for AoO (no extended reach with kinetic whip though). All the extra attacks can add up just like another other melee or ranged focused character. It sucks to lose utility talents though as that's what makes kineticists fun.
^ This, basically if you want to do focused 100% melee kineticist this is the archetype becuause full BAB.
If you want to bump the damage dice and attack vs touch AC and not be full BAB you go regular kineticist and deal with burn to turn it into a melee weapon and chose a kinetic blast that energy based for a touch attack rather than vs AC.
Add in Bloodrager with the Mad Magic feat for more fun to have no problems using your (SP) while raging and get a boost to your con for damage and str to hit (unless you went dex then go barbarian and take urban barbarian and boost solely con.)
So I'm making a preliminary build comparison, and the comparisons seem pretty odd.
Kinetecist:
level 1-Burn, elemental focus earth, gather power, telekinetic blade, cold blast, weapon finesse
level 2-earth defense, skilled kinetecist
level 3-elemental overflow +1, pushing infusion, weapon focus (kinetic blast)
level 4-skilled kinetecist - greater
level 5-entangling infusion, infusion specialization 1, metakinesis(empower), pirahna strike
level 6-Elemental overflow +2, internal buffer 1, tremorsense
level 7-Expanded element(earth, telekinetic whip, metal blast), combat reflexes
level 8-Infusion specialization 2, jagged flesh
Elemental Annihilator:
level 1-Burn, elemental focus earth, gather power, devestating infusion, earth blast, weapon finesse
level 2-earth defense, double slice
level 3-elemental overflow +1, extended range infusion, weapon focus (kinetic blast)
level 4-Ever-present threat
level 5-entangling infusion, infusion specialization 1, metakinesis(empower), pirahna strike
level 6-Elemental overflow +2, internal buffer 1, flurry of devastation
level 7-Expanded element(doesn't seem to matter from what I can tell), two-weapon fighting
level 8-Infusion specialization 2, improved two-weapon fighting
Kinetecist:
standard/charge attack, base 1 burn:
4d6 + 8 + CON on hit, 4+DEX to hit
+1 burn for +50% damage
-1 burn for gather power at cost of move action
+1 burn for reach + last until next turn
+2 burn to use metal blast, damage changes to 8d6 + 12 + CON
-2 burn to use thanks to infusion specialization
full attack, base 1 burn:
4d6 + 8 + CON per hit, 4+DEX/DEX-1 to hit for 2 attacks
+1 burn for +50% damage
+1 burn for reach + last until next turn
+2 burn to use metal blast, damage changes to 8d6 + 12 + CON
-2 burn to use thanks to infusion specialization
Elemental Annihilator:
Standard attack, base 0 burn:
1d8+6+CON on hit, 6+DEX to hit
+1 burn for +50% damage
-1 burn for spending move action
full attack, base 1 burn:
Primary hand attack:
1d8+6+CON each hit, 4+DEX/DEX-1 to hit
Offhand attack:
1d8+3+CON each hit, 4+DEX/DEX-1 to hit
+1 burn for +50% damage
-2 burn for infusion specialization
So from what I can tell, best options seem to be:
Kinetecist:
0 burn: 4d6 + 8 + CON damage, reach, two attacks at 4+DEX/DEX-1
1 burn: 1.5x(4d6 + 8 + CON) damage, reach, two attacks at 4+DEX/DEX-1
2 burn: 8d6 + 12 + CON damage, reach, two attacks at 4+DEX/DEX-1
3 burn: 1.5x(8d6 + 12 + CON) damage, reach, two attacks at 4+DEX/DEX-1
Annihilator:
0 burn: 1d8 + 4.5 + CON each hit, 4 attacks at 4+DEX/DEX-1
1 burn: 1.5x(1d8 + 4.5 + CON) each hit, 4 attacks at 4+DEX/DEX-1
So, since the hit chances seem to be the same for each class, we can only calculate damage for this.
Assuming all of the attacks hit, though, here's what my math is showing, assuming 22 con (starting 16, +2 racial, +2 for magic item, +2 for levelling):
Kinetecist:
0 burn: (3.5x4 + 8 + 6) x 2 = 56 average DPR
1 burn: 1.5x((3.5x4 + 8 + 6) x 2) = 84 average DPR
2 burn: (3.5x8 + 12 + 6) x 2 = 92 average DPR
3 burn: 1.5x((3.5x8 + 12 + 6) x 2) = 138 average DPR
Annihilator:
0 burn: (4.5 + 4.5 + 6) x 4 = 60 average DPR
1 burn: 1.5x((4.5 + 4.5 + 6) x 4) = 90 average DPR
Now, this shows that, at this level, the annihilator only out-damages the base kineticist with this method by only a little bit, and doesn't have the same options for increasing raw damage output with extra burn. In addition, the annihilator doesn't have reach for AoO's, and it can't extend its maximum damage with this build past melee range, like the kineticist can for his whip.
So from what I can tell, once you hit 6th level, the base kinetecist seems to be a far superior choice for a melee focused build.
Am I missing anything major? The annihilator does get better hit chances and more iterative attacks and earlier AoO threat, but the damage output seems to not be worth everything that you lose.
I think you missed blast training for the annihilator (increases accuracy and damage both by 1), and a +1 hit/damage can often wind up making an unexpectedly high difference in a DPR analysis (I while ago, I remember checking between two fighter builds and getting like a 15% difference in damage by higher levels for starting with a 20 Strength instead of 18). This increases at level 9, making level 8 the best possible level for the basic kineticist in the analysis, I would guess (15 is also a pretty good one, since they get a third attack, but annihilator gets a fourth the next level).
I think you missed blast training for the annihilator (increases accuracy and damage both by 1), and a +1 hit/damage can often wind up making an unexpectedly high difference in a DPR analysis (I while ago, I remember checking between two fighter builds and getting like a 15% difference in damage by higher levels for starting with a 20 Strength instead of 18). This increases at level 9, making level 8 the best possible level for the basic kineticist in the analysis, I would guess (15 is also a pretty good one, since they get a third attack, but annihilator gets a fourth the next level).
Ah, so I did. That means the annihilator doesn't get the entangling infusion at level 5, and instead gets a +1/+1 for all his attacks. This increases the accuracy to higher than the base kineticist, and the base damage by another 4.
So it seems that the annihilator is clearly better in terms of damage, then. At least for the TWF aspect. Is this damage worth the utility lost, though?
What about taking advantage of vital strike, for instance? I think that it would be a fairly powerful option for mobility, since you can deal your full damage and move in the same round, and you could increase the base damage further without spending burn thanks to gather power being usable with your move action. The problem I see with this build is that it doesn't come online until 9th level, since vital strike requires BaB +6 and it's not on the list of feats you can take as extra feats.
So it seems that the annihilator is clearly better in terms of damage, then. At least for the TWF aspect. Is this damage worth the utility lost, though?
Basically the standard Kineticist would have more utility but you're doing alot more burn to yourself.
While Anhillator is doing less utility but is building themselves for higher DPR for less burn.
So It all depends on the campign/party makeup. If your party needs someone with that extra utility then go for it, otherwise less Burn means more encounters per day you can go all-out without too much concern you're building up too much nonlethal.
I will also note vital strike would probably benefit the standard kineticist more as higher dice damage epsecially if you did energy blasts for 1/2 Con damage you might as well go for the extra gurenteed dice than more attacks then.
I will also note vital strike would probably benefit the standard kineticist more as higher dice damage epsecially if you did energy blasts for 1/2 Con damage you might as well go for the extra gurenteed dice than more attacks then.
Annihilator is actually uniquely capable of using vital strike, while the base kineticist is not. Otherwise I totally would do that.