Saves while Magically Slept


Rules Questions


If you are magically slept:

Will saves = Normal
Reflex save @ -5
Fortitude save = Normal

Is that correct?


Correct.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well not really. Your reflex save is as if you helpless (ie Dex of 0). So it would modify the reflex save by normal -1*(dex modifier+5).


And just to be clear when you are magically slept you are not considered Willing?


I misread Harmor's post.

Sleep treats the dex modifier as a -5 for reflex saves.

You are not considered willing unless the spelling has "harmless" besides where it shows what the saving throw is.


Harmless and willing are actually separate.

A spell with (harmless) doesn't prompt a saving throw unless the subject wishes it, and if you're unconscious you can't make that choice so there is no save.

Unconscious creatures are always considered willing for the sake of targeting. Spells like dimension door are limited to willing targets and for that purpose unconscious creatures are considered willing, even though you'd normally have to be conscious to declare yourself such.


They are not completely separate.

This line refers to spells such as dimension door that don't offer a save, but you must be willing to go along with. If you are unconscious you are considered to be willing however.

Quote:
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Harmless spells are assuming that you will give up the saving throwing so they have the "harmless" tag.

Quote:

(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires......

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.


Something to keep in mind though: sleeping people are not unconscious - at least not as the game treats the terms.


wraithstrike wrote:


Harmless spells are assuming that you will give up the saving throwing so they have the "harmless" tag.

Harmless spells default to no saving throw, a creature can attempt one if he desires, but he does not have to "voluntarily forgo" his save like non-harmless spells.

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