It basically takes GM Fiat,otherwise he probably would have been returned to life by Iomadae.
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Yeah, but I'm imagining that the rules for a full god may not be exactly the same as that for a random outsider. And again, if it were simply a matter as simple as ninth level spells (or even multiple ninth level spells), it's doubtful that any deity would EVER stay dead. And the Pathfinder setting has quite a few dead gods.
Remember, they also have to *want* to come back.
Also I believe it's been confirmed that Pharasma's already judged him, and there is no coming back from that short of beyond-epic scope, if even that.
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This isn't so much an answer to your question, but just something to think about...
If I were your GM, I'd have no problem with you making a character so devoted to Aroden they wish to investigate the god's death and/or revive him, but I'd also let you know right out of the gate your odds of success are virtually zero. You'd have to be okay with getting into the RP of a character whose mission you know, OOC, is destined to fail. The reason I'd do this is because, while I could exercise my GM power to come up with my own successful conclusion to your quest, I'd personally rather let the guys at Paizo tell that story.
That said, I think the idea is sound and it could be alot of fun since it gives your character a reason to adventure for as long as he's able. The character could easily become a tragic hero who spends the majority of his life searching for something only to have it constantly elude his grasp, maybe only realizing the truth as his story comes to an end. That PC's story could then become a legacy quest for future PCs. Pretty epic stuff.
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Thank you Velcro. I feel you have better understood what I was going for, while I would like resolution for my character, it would also be fun to RP the tragic hero doomed to never resolve, or maybe discover his god is dead and never coming back. Like you said it gives him a purpose, I have known some people who adventure for its own sake or other weak reasons that conclude and its like well you resolved your quest, whats the point in still adventuring.
The resurrection of Aroden is like someone passing the test of the Starstone, firmly in the realm of GM fiat.
How you accomplish this fiat is up to the individual GM. Personally, I think the most interesting thing would be for the soul of Aroden--which was once mortal--to again be mortal, but reincarnated, having forgotten its former greatness but going about living lives as a mortal again which it had forgotten about until such time as it takes the test of the Starstone again and reascends to godhood.
Hell, it would even be possible to come up with a heresy that states that this already happened, and Aroden is now known as Cayden Cailean. Or Norgorber. Or both, since his soul split into its good and evil halves and went and both took the test of the Starstone separately.
Is it clear he's actually dead?
As far as I'm aware he's absent/gone and presumed dead, but not confirmed dead.
Relevance: can't revive someone who isn't actually, well, you know, dead.
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I've run a few games in Absalom, and had a few players who wanted to find a way to raise Aroden. I ended up with a "stock" answer that to do so you'd have to find a piece of his body, pass the Test of the Starstone, then at the moment when you could become a god, instead cast true resurrection.
That seemed epic enough to explain why it hadn't happened, but tied in to the background well enough to satisfy players. It is, however, just a house rule.
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This is the kind of request that sme GMs look forward to. Because you can really throw together some epic craziness at the players, justified by the scale of what they want to do.
I honestly don't ever want to know how and why Aroden died, or what the meaning of death is for a god.
I want vague and contradictory hints about it, like the gardens of the Jyoti birds, the failure of prophecy and the flaw of the starstone.
It's Golarion's greatest mystery and I don't want to see it answered and made mundane.
Is it clear he's actually dead?
As far as I'm aware he's absent/gone and presumed dead, but not confirmed dead.
Relevance: can't revive someone who isn't actually, well, you know, dead.
James Jacobs said he was dead. That is about as "dead" as you can get for a character in Golarion.
Type this into the search bar.--> "james jacobs"+aroden+dead
As far as I recall he also said his soul has been judged by Pharasma - which makes a resurrection plan hard to work.
How does that make resurrection tricky? Being judged by Pharasma generally means your soul is sent on to the relevant god or afterlife. Lots of people get resurrected after that happens.
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The reason I'd do this is because, while I could exercise my GM power to come up with my own successful conclusion to your quest, I'd personally rather let the guys at Paizo tell that story.
They have said many times that they aren't going to do that. It isn't about preserving some mystery to be resolved at a later date; rather, they have left this entire story blank for GMs to make up their own minds on what happened in their world.
So while I take your point, there is no official story to be told on this one.
Creative Director
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Aroden's fate in any one GM's version of Golarion is up to that GM.
In the official campaign setting, though, he's dead. And while I do find it interesting to see how different GMs toy with that absolutely (and completely intentionally) tantalizing campaign plot point... it's not a plot point I've got anything more to say about.
Other than to confirm that the baseline assumption is that he's dead unless the GM says otherwise.
That said...
So feel free in coming up with your own story for what's going on. If you wait for us to get to it, you'll be disappointed.
As far as I recall he also said his soul has been judged by Pharasma - which makes a resurrection plan hard to work.How does that make resurrection tricky? Being judged by Pharasma generally means your soul is sent on to the relevant god or afterlife. Lots of people get resurrected after that happens.
From the Ask JJ thread:
Now followup question, does a soul become a petitioner at the instant of death or do they have to wait until they reach the boneyard for their actual designation?The timing of when a soul becomes a petitioner is fluid and variable. Since once a soul becomes a petitioner it's moved beyond the point at which the soul can be resurrected (or otherwise brought back to life) by mortal magic is gone, and since there are multiple limits on how long something can be dead and still be brought back to life depending on the spell and caster level in question, we can never really say exactly how long it takes a soul to travel to the Boneyard, get judged, and be sent on for its final reward or punishment. It's different for everyone.
In Golarion, once you've been judged, you can't come back. Everyone who has been reincarnated, raised, resurrected, etc., was still in line in the Boneyard at the time.
Well, there still is the obvious loophole of "mortal magic." Is a Miracle, a divine magic which invokes the direct intercession of a god, "mortal magic"? Or is this a way of saying that such a spell would be at least 10th level epic magic and you'd have to be a demigod before attempting it?
So far as the impossible things before breakfast go, before Aroden and the Starstone, mortals couldn't ascend to godhood. Before the death of Aroden, gods couldn't die either, or at least not quite that way. Given the sort of magics we're dealing with here, it's not unreasonable for many mortals and for that matter gods to be waiting for another shoe to drop in the matter of Aroden. Whether it ever will drop is another item, but the point is that it may drop, and one would be a poor student of history to say "impossible!" in the same sentence as "Aroden."
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You are right. And since it is your game, even if all the designers at Paizo scream 'Nooo he can't come back' in unison, he still can come back in your campaign (or he can stay dead if they decide he comes back from the dead triumphant)
The strange thing is: That goes for everything in this game and in Golarion.
His clerics and other associated divine servants stopped receiving spells. They investigated as best they could from there.
His clerics and other associated divine servants stopped receiving spells. They investigated as best they could from there.
Perhaps with assistance from the clerics of Iomedae? They could cast the necessary divinations to confirm that Aroden was dead...
Did Iomedae even have clerics? She was just a herald at the time of Aroden's death, although maybe she was just slummin' it and acting as herald even though she was a goddess in her own right.
Always thought she got gypped by the Starstone, Cayden and Norgorbor got punted right up to godhood while Iomedae was stuck as a CR 15 herald for 800 years.
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Did I miss an entry in a book, somewhere? Highly, highly possible, I simply don't have the money to own everything...but everything I've read on Aroden doesn't have a definitive basis of his death. He disappeared and is presumed dead...with Iomedae taking his roles in his absence? If I missed something....please clue me in.
First page, first section of the Inner Sea World Guide:
Just over a century ago, the god of humanity died. His name was Aroden…
…Aroden, the god of humanity, died…
…death of the god of humanity…
…Aroden's death scarred the world…
…decades since Aroden's death
And later:
Aroden's death…
…Aroden died, and a part of Cheliax died with him…
…death of Aroden…
…sudden death of the god Aroden…
…between Aroden's death…
…precise moment Aroden died…
…following the death of Aroden…
…death of Aroden transformed…
…Aroden (The Last Azlanti; Dead God)…
…Aroden died, leaving his followers…
…death of the last Azlanti…
Although the section on Mendev mentioned that Clerics of Iomedae existed during the emergence of the Worldwound.
You are right. And since it is your game, even if all the designers at Paizo scream 'Nooo he can't come back' in unison, he still can come back in your campaign (or he can stay dead if they decide he comes back from the dead triumphant)
The strange thing is: That goes for everything in this game and in Golarion.
Exactly. Aroden is not dead if your campaign says he's alive--simple as that.
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Exactly. Aroden is not dead if your campaign says he's alive--simple as that.You are right. And since it is your game, even if all the designers at Paizo scream 'Nooo he can't come back' in unison, he still can come back in your campaign (or he can stay dead if they decide he comes back from the dead triumphant)
The strange thing is: That goes for everything in this game and in Golarion.
Paizo does not have a continuity police for your home campaign. So, feel free to alter Golarion's history and the world as you see fit. That is the idea --- you as a GM are empowered to run your campaign as you see fit. The player characters have the ability to change the world. So, I imagine that reviving Aroden would likely be an epic quest and something that the player characters would work towards for a long time.
There will be continuity inside of officially published products, but you are not obligated to go by them. (Pathfinder Society Organized Play, being run by Paizo, is an official campaign and will generally conform to all the rules. PCs are a bit more limited in their choices (for example, no item creation feats or leadership) but the sky is the limit for your home campaign.)
I seem to recall a thread a while back where one PC in a home campaign may be Aroden reborn. This would probably not be a wise thing to announce to the public, as I imagine that there are those who would hate to see Aroden return.
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First page, first section of the Inner Sea World Guide:
Just over a century ago, the god of humanity died. His name was Aroden…
…Aroden, the god of humanity, died…
…death of the god of humanity…
…Aroden's death scarred the world…
…decades since Aroden's deathAnd later:
Although the section on Mendev mentioned that Clerics of Iomedae existed during the emergence of the Worldwound.Aroden's death…
…Aroden died, and a part of Cheliax died with him…
…death of Aroden…
…sudden death of the god Aroden…
…between Aroden's death…
…precise moment Aroden died…
…following the death of Aroden…
…death of Aroden transformed…
…Aroden (The Last Azlanti; Dead God)…
…Aroden died, leaving his followers…
…death of the last Azlanti…
Yes, I've seen all those entries, however, the exact details state that Aroden disappeared and is presumed dead. So while passing mentions speak of his death, absolutely nowhere can I find an actual accounting of what may or may not have occurred. There isn't even a hint as to what the incident that caused his death was. Perhaps it is in a novel...I haven't read those...but I have strived in vain to find an accounting of his death in the gaming books to no avail.
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Yes, I've seen all those entries, however, the exact details state that Aroden disappeared and is presumed dead. So while passing mentions speak of his death, absolutely nowhere can I find an actual accounting of what may or may not have occurred. There isn't even a hint as to what the incident that caused his death was. Perhaps it is in a novel...I haven't read those...but I have strived in vain to find an accounting of his death in the gaming books to no avail.
In the Secrets of Golarion session in Paizocon 2011, and again above in this thread, James Jacobs says that what occurred to Aroden is one of those mysteries of the world that will never be made public, but that he is indeed dead and judged by Pharasma
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Yes, I've seen all those entries, however, the exact details state that Aroden disappeared and is presumed dead. So while passing mentions speak of his death, absolutely nowhere can I find an actual accounting of what may or may not have occurred. There isn't even a hint as to what the incident that caused his death was. Perhaps it is in a novel...I haven't read those...but I have strived in vain to find an accounting of his death in the gaming books to no avail.First page, first section of the Inner Sea World Guide:
Just over a century ago, the god of humanity died. His name was Aroden…
…Aroden, the god of humanity, died…
…death of the god of humanity…
…Aroden's death scarred the world…
…decades since Aroden's deathAnd later:
Although the section on Mendev mentioned that Clerics of Iomedae existed during the emergence of the Worldwound.Aroden's death…
…Aroden died, and a part of Cheliax died with him…
…death of Aroden…
…sudden death of the god Aroden…
…between Aroden's death…
…precise moment Aroden died…
…following the death of Aroden…
…death of Aroden transformed…
…Aroden (The Last Azlanti; Dead God)…
…Aroden died, leaving his followers…
…death of the last Azlanti…
James Jacobs has said that he knows what happened but is not going to reveal it. There just came a day of disaster on Golarion, when Aroden stopped answering the prayers of his clergy -- who no longer received spells. The Worldwound opened up and the Eye of Abendego formed.
Perhaps the gods know, but if so, none has given an account. Perhaps the gods do not know. At the risk of speaking for Paizo staff, of which I am not a member, I think that there will never be an official accounting of what happened to Aroden. This is one of the mysteries that GMs can explore in their home campaigns. I am not sure if what happened will ever be touched on in any official product, but Aroden is as dead as can be in the official canon.
To me, the more interesting point is that while Iomedae has inherited Aroden's spot in the pantheon, her deific portfolio is different. Aroden has, numerous times, been referred to as the God of Humanity; something Iomedae is not. By the time Aroden died, she had already passed the Test of the Starstone and had her own church (which most of Aroden's follwers joined upon his death). All of that info is right in the Inner Sea World Guide. So, no more God (or Goddess) of Humanity with the most obvious consequence being "look-what-happened-to-Cheliax".
It makes me wonder about the nature of gods in Golarion when Rock from Space(TM) can make you one.
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I think a devoted follower of Aroden, who sees the results of what happened when the God of Humanity and Order dies (the Eye of Abendego forms, and the World Wound opens up) might actually seek to find a way to replace Aroden properly with a new God or Goddess of Humanity. Someone to take up the mantle, so to speak, if it is found that resurrection is impossible.
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So far as the impossible things before breakfast go, before Aroden and the Starstone, mortals couldn't ascend to godhood.
Irori and Nethys were both mortals who ascended to godhood without the aid of the starstone.
Before the death of Aroden, gods couldn't die either, or at least not quite that way.
The Peacock Spirit and Curchanus aren't exactly sprightly. Plus I believe the Mother of Zon Kuthon and Shelyn was a goddess of love who was destroyed.
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Thanks Kirst and William. I appreciate the answer.
Jack, most of the posters are correct...you particular campaign is your own. Even the writers of Paizo state that the books are a guideline, and you should feel free to adjust to what you need and/or want. TThe person to really ask is your GM. Who knows, maybe in your setting, he never died.
Although I will say, Aroden reminds me of a certain Divine Being on our own world...and I can't help but wonder if we have truly seen the end of him...currently dead and judged or not. We are dealing with gods after all. In my book, that makes anything possible.
It makes me wonder about the nature of gods in Golarion when Rock from Space(TM) can make you one.
That's assuming it's truly the rock that does it. Perhaps it's not the rock itself but the Test of the Star Stone that causes the apotheosis.