One of my players in an upcoming game I will be running wants to play a barbarian titan mauler. The question I have is that he wants to use a normal bastard sword one-handed by using jotungrip. Looking at the equipment section it indicates that the bastard sword is one-handed on the table but requires EWP, however it can be used two-handed as a martial weapon. What I'm trying to find out that if he doesn't have EWP:bastard sword and uses jotungrip on the bastard sword is what penalty he should be taking? The -4 for nonproficient use as a one-hander or -2 for using a two-handed weapon in one hand per jotungrip. Thanks in advance.
Its still a martial Two Handed weapon and Jotun grip is in relation to Two Handed Weapons. So only the -2 penalty from Jotun grip would apply. If he at some point got Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword it would not be considered a two handed weapon and would have no penalties to use it in one hand.
Just remember things like strength and a half on two handed weapons only apply while using a weapon in two hands. Also the additional Bonus from power attacking with a weapon in two hands only applies like the above.
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Looking at the equipment section it indicates that the bastard sword is one-handed on the table but requires EWP, however it can be used two-handed as a martial weapon.
Looking only at the rules, the logical assumption would be a bastard sword is always a one-handed weapon. Just like a longsword. If you're proficient, no problem. If you're not proficient, take the -4 penalty. Then just apply the special rider, if you're proficient with martial weapons but not the Bastard sword, then IF you're using it with two hands, you don't take the -4 penalty.
JJ ruled that if you're not proficient, you can't use it in one hand at all.
So your GM needs to make a decision on how to use it.
A) It's one handed with a special rider. (RAW>JJ)
B) It's a quantum object, changing size based on whoever is interacting with it. (RAW+JJ)
C) It's a two-handed weapon, always, but can be used one-handed by someone who is proficient. (RAW<JJ)
What does this mean for Jotungrip?
A: Jotungrip doesn't work, as it's not a two-handed weapon. You can still wield it non-proficiently with a -4 penalty, like every other weapon in the game.
B: Jotungrip only works if the barbarian is not EWP Proficient. -2 penalty.
C: Always works. -2 from Jotungrip if not EWP proficient.
B&C also rely on the assumption that Jotungrip is more specific than the bastard sword, meaning normally you couldn't use it in one hand, but because of the special ability, you can.
Jotungrip (Ex): "At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge."
Sword, Bastard: "A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
without the Exotic Weapon feat, you simply can not use a bastard sword in one hand.
Which is a revision of his earlier post:
The table of weapons lists the bastard sword as a one-handed exotic weapon, and that seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Semi-related thread: Spell Strike and the Bastard Sword (towards the end)
As an aside, if he's willing to spend 15 gp more and carry 3 more lbs, he could just use a Greatsword and have bigger damage dice.
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I'm pretty sure that based on the intent of the weapon, it could be used as a martial weapon by someone with Jotungrip at the -2 penalty.
It would probably be better if the Bastard Sword were listed as a 2-handed weapon, with the ability to be wielded one-handed with the EWP, rather than the other way around, since the Martial version of the weapon is the more generic.
Nonetheless,
A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon
and
...a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.
seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.
What are you trying to say Redward?
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A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weaponand
...a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.
A character can use a longsword two-handed as a martial weapon.
This does not make it a two-handed weapon.
A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weaponand
...a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.A character can use a longsword two-handed as a martial weapon.
This does not make it a two-handed weapon.
You're applying a generic example to a specific weapon description.
A longsword also doesn't have any special text in its description that changes its proficiency depending on how many hands are used to wield it.
I read it as a 2-handed martial weapon. YMMV.
A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weaponand
...a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.A character can use a longsword two-handed as a martial weapon.
This does not make it a two-handed weapon.
You're applying a generic example to a specific weapon description.
A longsword also doesn't have any special text in its description that changes its proficiency depending on how many hands are used to wield it.
I read it as a 2-handed martial weapon. YMMV.
In you in the equipment chapter certain weapons are designated as two-handed weapons. A weapon desinated as a two-handed weapon, and one that can be use with two hands to get similar results for the purpose of power attack and strength bonuses are not the same thing. Weapons that are designed as two-handed weapons requires 2 hands.
A longsword is a is a one-handed weapon according to the equipment chapter, not a two handed weapon. It is not a matter of how many hands you can use. It is a matter of minimum requirements.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
That is the difference. As you can see a longsword is not a two-handed weapon, just because it can be used with two hands.
To give someone a higher penalty for wielding a martial bastard sword onehanded than wielding a greatsword onehanded is silly.
To give someone a higher penalty for wielding a martial bastard sword onehanded than wielding a greatsword onehanded is silly.
The penalty is a -2 for both. The reason the OP had a -4 upthread is because he was trying to add TWF.
To give someone a higher penalty for wielding a martial bastard sword onehanded than wielding a greatsword onehanded is silly.The penalty is a -2 for both. The reason the OP had a -4 upthread is because he was trying to add TWF.
There are others arguing that you get a -4 penalty because you are using it nonproficient as it is a onehanded exotic weapon and not a twohanded weapon and thus jotungrip doesn't work.
You can't even wield it in one hand without the exotic proficiency feat. I see their point, but I don't agree with it.
You mean without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat or Jotungrip.
Yeah, but that one is in this thread so I figured I would not have to state it again. :)
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Just providing clarity for the literalists I know exist here. ;)
i thought i might as well post here to get clarity:
is it consensus that the only really beneficial legal usage of jotungrip
is on larger-size bastard swords/dwarven waraxes/et al, given the RAW of how it works?
to me, that is ridiculously stupid that the ability is so pidegonholed into the '1handed 2handed weapons'.
is it consensus that the only really beneficial legal usage of jotungrip
is on larger-size bastard swords/dwarven waraxes/et al, given the RAW of how it works?
Jotungrip doesn't work at all on larger-size weapons. The weapon must be appropriately sized.
i thought i might as well post here to get clarity:
is it consensus that the only really beneficial legal usage of jotungrip
is on larger-size bastard swords/dwarven waraxes/et al, given the RAW of how it works?
to me, that is ridiculously stupid that the ability is so pidegonholed into the '1handed 2handed weapons'.
It wasn't the authors intent for it to be that useless, but the editors and dev team made sure that it was errata'ed into uselessness. Original intention was for the reduction in size penalty to allow the wielder to use larger weapons once the penalty was removed (huge greatsword for example would require a reduction of the -4 size penalty before you could use it).
thanks Matthias and Grick,
yeah it seems like a case of not seeing the forest for the trees when doing Errata,
i mean having rules that are 100% clear and work per RAW is really just the basic standard,
also having them coherently translate the conceptual intent in a meaningful way is where the aim should be.
It wasn't the authors intent for it to be that useless, but the editors and dev team made sure that it was errata'ed into uselessness. Original intention was for the reduction in size penalty to allow the wielder to use larger weapons once the penalty was removed (huge greatsword for example would require a reduction of the -4 size penalty before you could use it).i thought i might as well post here to get clarity:
is it consensus that the only really beneficial legal usage of jotungrip
is on larger-size bastard swords/dwarven waraxes/et al, given the RAW of how it works?
to me, that is ridiculously stupid that the ability is so pidegonholed into the '1handed 2handed weapons'.
I would say that it was edited into uselessness. Errata implies that they changed it after it was published, which is what we're all hoping they do.
I would say that it was edited into uselessness. Errata implies that they changed it after it was published, which is what we're all hoping they do.It wasn't the authors intent for it to be that useless, but the editors and dev team made sure that it was errata'ed into uselessness. Original intention was for the reduction in size penalty to allow the wielder to use larger weapons once the penalty was removed (huge greatsword for example would require a reduction of the -4 size penalty before you could use it).i thought i might as well post here to get clarity:
is it consensus that the only really beneficial legal usage of jotungrip
is on larger-size bastard swords/dwarven waraxes/et al, given the RAW of how it works?
to me, that is ridiculously stupid that the ability is so pidegonholed into the '1handed 2handed weapons'.
It used to work for firearms quite well, but they added an errata that made it melee weapons only. I was mostly sad that they did an errata and it didnt do anything but make the archetype less useful
Anyone got a link to where the developer who came up with it was talking about it? I recall that he posted on the board about it at some point.
Anyone got a link to where the developer who came up with it was talking about it? I recall that he posted on the board about it at some point.
To clear up a little confusion upthread, Quandary, I think you're thinking of Massive Weapons. That's the one whose intent was nerfed by the weapon designation (light, one-handed, two-handed) rules.
Jotungrip still retains a marginal amount of usefulness if you want to dual-wield Greatswords or Elven Curve Blades. Or Meteor Hammers, if you want to open a can of worms.
They put in the errata to fix the loophole for firearms, and then inexplicably clarified that it was for size-appropriate weapons only. I say inexplicable, because without Massive Weapons functioning as intended, there's no real benefit that I can see to using mis-sized weapons with Jotungrip.
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Anyone else not understand anything redward says? It is like a buncha ascii text just comes out whenever he types. If I try to pronounce what he wrote it just sounds like the teacher from Charlie Brown.
(thanx for the link ;) )
Anyone else not understand anything redward says? It is like a buncha ascii text just comes out whenever he types. If I try to pronounce what he wrote it just sounds like the teacher from Charlie Brown.
(thanx for the link ;) )
Imagine what it must be like in my head.
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If the rules for the bastard sword were along the lines of ''treat it as a one-handed weapon if you have the exotic weapon proficiency; treat it as a two-handed weapon if you don't'',then Jotungrip would let you use it at -2 without the EWP.
I admit that I sometimes conceptualise it that way. But that is NOT how it works in the game! Here's what it says, again:-
''Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.''
I think that even the devs conceptualised it to work as we would like it to work. But that is not the rule. The rule is that a bastard sword is a one-handed weapon. Period. And an exotic weapon to boot. The special rule for bastardsword let's you USE it in two hands without a penalty if you are proficient in martial weapons, but it doesn't turn into a two-handed weapon! It remains a one-handed weapon being used two-handed, just like you can use a longsword two-handed but that remains a one-handed weapon.
Jotungrip doesn't make you proficient in any weapon at all! If you are not proficient in a weapon before you use Jotungrip, you are still not proficient with it while using Jotungrip.
If you are not proficient with a meteor hammer or a bo staff or any other exotic two-handed weapon, would using Jotungrip make you proficient? Would using Jotungrip allow you to avoid the non-proficiency penalty?
If you are not proficient with a nine-section whip or an urumi or any other exotic one-handed weapon, would using Jotungrip make you proficient? Would using Jotungrip allow you to avoid the non-proficiency penalty?
If you use a bastard sword in one hand without proficiency (which requires EWP) then you take a -4 penalty to attack rolls.
If you use a bastard sword in two hands without proficiency (which requires MWP) then you take a -4 penalty to attack rolls.
Jotungrip does not give you proficiency in any weapon. It does not turn one-handed weapons into two-handed weapons which can be used one-handed!(?). In fact, Jotungrip doesn't apply when using one-handed weapons at all!
If you wonder at the apparent unfairness of the Jotungripper using (one-handed) a longsword at -0, a bastard sword at -4, and a greatsword at -2, then simply understand that he is proficient with the longsword and the greatsword, but he is not proficient with the bastard sword.
If you want to houserule it that way, go ahead. RAW, he's taking a -4 non-proficiency penalty. Best start saving up your pennies for that greatsword.
I play as a Dwarf Barbarian Titan Mauler and have jotungrip. I also carry two two-bladed swords w/double. Does that mean I can roll 2d8s per weapon, for a total of 4d8s (not including rage or power attack bonuses)? If so, what would my modifiers be?
A twobladed sword deals 1d8. The secon 1d8 is in cast you use it as a double weapon, which you can't if you wield in in one hand. So you would deal 1d8 with each twobladed sword, making it rather weak.