RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So I marketed PF (3/3.5 as well) and in general it is a reality of it, that anything you want to do, there is a possibility of doing so for it, unlike in 4e, but I was then presented with:
'Cover the tip (of an arrow) in a rag and set it on fire', 'dip the arrow in oil, set it alight and fire', so as to get light into a slightly distant room. Now my conundrum is, how do I handle setting arrows on fire to be used as light sources? They claim that in real life, people did such things even in proper war and not just to light areas. I disallowed it at first and told them I'd head to the forums to see if it's possible.
I'm not aware of any rules for this, which defaults it to "GM's call". If all they want to do is light a room, I'd personally let them treat it as a torch but not quite lasting as long.
My other problem is, they told me that they should be able to hear shuffling from the goblins in nearby rooms (the goblins weren't attempting any forms of stealth checks). When I told them they'd have to actively roll perception, they complained that 'if a dragon roared, would I have to actively roll to hear that too?'. I don't want to use the idea of passive perception because it still feels meta-gamey and only for the sake of taking out the job of ACTUALLY being careful and trying to hear enemies (only passive perception check I'd PROBABLY allow, is a flat perception skill like if a character had +5 to his perception, that's all he gets). Just what kind of sound would require an ACTIVE check to hear it and what would the DC even be?
For starters, the Perception rules say this:
"Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action."So any given stimulus is either something to be noticed (you would call for a free check), or something to be searched for (costs a move action and requires the player to initiate it). Which category the goblins footsteps falls into is for you to determine based on the situation. As for DCs, there are sample DCs and modifiers in the skill description.
On marching, when the group clears out a room and proceed to head down the dungeon, they claim they ought to be able to march at the same time rather than each taking a move action. Last dungeon I told them they should each make moves to get to new areas, how else would I handle such a thing? If I DO allow them to march, my fear is that when they enter into an area and are suddenly ambushed, I would not know how to play out their positions. Are they all clustered up like in a proper marching situation or is one of them ahead of the others due to his move action being first?
Many GMs (myself included) as for a "marching order" when the PCs are out of initiative and simply traveling to the next room. It's realistic, and gives you an idea of their relative positions next time something happens.
how do I handle setting arrows on fire to be used as light sources?
There's not any specific rules on this that I'm aware of. It's sort of a worse option than casting Light on a pebble and tossing it, as it uses up a longer time to get the fire going, and they're using expendable resources.
Just what kind of sound would require an ACTIVE check to hear it and what would the DC even be?
Perception: "Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action."
Hear the sound of a creature walking: DC 10
Modifiers:
Through a closed door: +5
Through a wall: +10/foot of thickness
Distance to the source, object, or creature: +1/10 feet
Unfavorable conditions: +2
Creature making the check is distracted: +5
So DC can be anywhere between 16 and 30, depending on where the goblins are, how much noise the party is making, what's between them, etc.
Checks like this could be made in secret so the players can't metagame based on the result of their roll or when the check happened. ("He told us all to roll perception, and we didn't see anything, we should stop and try again until we roll better")
Last dungeon I told them they should each make moves to get to new areas, how else would I handle such a thing?
While you can keep them in initiative order and have each player take their actions just like in combat, this can get very boring if nothing is going to happen for a while.
Generally, outside of combat, people play without init or actions, players just say what the character is doing. This is where things like Overland Movement come into play. An eight hour march broken into six second combat intervals is no good.
Are they all clustered up like in a proper marching situation or is one of them ahead of the others due to his move action being first?
Generally, I ask the players for a marching order. They line up their figures based on how they want to normally move through a potentially dangerous area. Usually someone in armor up front, casters in the middle, etc. When things happen, plop them down in that order, then start combat or whatever. If something is triggered by a specific action, then I'll break into actions. For example, if the ambush happens when someone moves into a certain square, I would put them in the room/area before the trap, tell them about the room, and have them all take a round of actions to move or place their figures where they want. Then when someone takes an action to open the door, or move up into/past the trigger, stop everything for init or surprise or whatever.
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Fire arrows: make a ruling about it about the amount of light, the radius for how much space the light covers, and how long it lasts. Maybe something like: dim light in 5 or 10 foot radius for 5-10 rounds. For reference, a candle is dim light in a 5 foot radius.
Perception: Perception is used two ways. The first is reactive; you can borrow the passive perception idea from 4e, which is basically a Take 10. Or, have them roll (roll for them if your group dynamics suggest the need to avoid the metagaming). Anything someone might notice (within reason) should be handled this way on stimulus. The other way is that a player can actively make a perception check. The DC for your goblins generally should be handled by giving them a Stealth check. Again, they can Take 10 or have them roll. Even if the goblins are not trying to be sneaky, this should generally apply, giving them a -5 if appropriate for full speed movement.
For Marching Order: Easy way to handle this is to have them provide a marching order, and then transfer the figures to the appropriate place on the map when combat starts. There is no need to have them make move actions outside of combat, and doing so is horribly tedious.
An example of how to handle this would be:
1) have them provide a marching order
2) they enter a large chamber, in which a pair of goblins are on guard
3) use perception vs. stealth to determine who sees whom when appropriate (line of sight is established, or earlier based on what is heard); if using what is heard, Perception's -1 per 10 feet establishes a good way to determine distance for when someone becomes aware. For example, if the goblins are on guard on the far side of the chamber, roll their Perception check, get the PCs' lowest Stealth check (again using the -5 for full speed if not active), the difference is the number of 10-foot increments between the goblins and the PCs when the goblins hear them (or when the PCs hear the goblins in reverse)
4) place figures/minis with the noisiest character at that distance, based on the marching order.
5) determine initiative and start combat with a surprise round if appropriate; if the goblins hear the PCs, decide on their actions they act in a way that the characters notice them, either when the goblins attack, make noise, sound the alarm, etc.
6) once combat is joined, only THEN start worrying about move actions.
Ask away; we're a friendly group. The only stupid questions are those that remain unasked. Knowledge is the light that dismisses the darkness of ignorance.
arrow.....make it last 5 rounds as a half radius light spell
if they wanna shoot something with it, say it is at -2 to hit for +1 fire damage
So I marketed PF (3/3.5 as well) and in general it is a reality of it, that anything you want to do, there is a possibility of doing so for it, unlike in 4e, but I was then presented with:
'Cover the tip (of an arrow) in a rag and set it on fire', 'dip the arrow in oil, set it alight and fire', so as to get light into a slightly distant room. Now my conundrum is, how do I handle setting arrows on fire to be used as light sources? They claim that in real life, people did such things even in proper war and not just to light areas. I disallowed it at first and told them I'd head to the forums to see if it's possible.
My other problem is, they told me that they should be able to hear shuffling from the goblins in nearby rooms (the goblins weren't attempting any forms of stealth checks). When I told them they'd have to actively roll perception, they complained that 'if a dragon roared, would I have to actively roll to hear that too?'. I don't want to use the idea of passive perception because it still feels meta-gamey and only for the sake of taking out the job of ACTUALLY being careful and trying to hear enemies (only passive perception check I'd PROBABLY allow, is a flat perception skill like if a character had +5 to his perception, that's all he gets). Just what kind of sound would require an ACTIVE check to hear it and what would the DC even be?
On marching, when the group clears out a room and proceed to head down the dungeon, they claim they ought to be able to march at the same time rather than each taking a move action. Last dungeon I told them they should each make moves to get to new areas, how else would I handle such a thing? If I DO allow them to march, my fear is that when they enter into an area and are suddenly ambushed, I would not know how to play out their positions. Are they all clustered up like in a proper marching situation or is one of them ahead of the others due to his move action being first?
I have some more questions but I'll avoid writing up a giant text wall and wait for help...
Fire Arrow
An arrow w/ rag covered in lamp equals perhaps the light of candle, maybe a torch after it is nearly burned through. The kind of arrows that they are thinking of use pitch (tar) so that they burn for a longer and steadier amount of time. Even so, the flight of the arrow might actually put out the flame. At my table I'd rule it possible. But it also would probably alert nearby darkvisioned creatures that there were yummy adventurers nearby.Sounds of Nearby Goblins
There are clear rules for this in the perception skill description, including DC modifiers for distance. Generally it a good idea to do this math ahead of time when designing an encounter though. Its a dead give away when you need to look in the book and do math that something is about to happen. "Active perception" is a move action, so you can assume that PCs moving at about walking speed are actively surveying their surroundings. If they hustle or run or say they are doing anything else, they are distracted and suffer -5 to their perception checks IIRC.
As for the comparison of goblins shuffling to a dragon's roar? No dice. Goblins =/ dragons in any fashion, certainly not for how loudly they burp.
Marching Order
Tracking movement as though in combat makes sense when you need to track every second of time, and only then. In all other cases just ask them for a marching order so that you know who is in front of who, and who is most likely to be first to be attacked. They stay clustered unless they decide one person scouts ahead, and can specify a specific distance. Let them decide how they are keeping formation and switch back to tracking move actions when you roll initiative.
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So I marketed PF (3/3.5 as well) and in general it is a reality of it, that anything you want to do, there is a possibility of doing so for it, unlike in 4e
If you re-wrote that as "in general it is a reality of it, that anything you want to do, [in 3.5/PF] there is a [rule] of doing so for it, unlike in 4e" it would be more correct, and may also highlight your problem - basically you seem hung up on the rules and feel that a lack of a rule means you can't do it.
Whilst the 3.x ruleset is extensive, it is not exhaustive; it can't possibly hope to cover every situation that comes up in games and every action that players may come up with.
I suggest trying the idea of "saying Yes or rolling the dice" - basically if the players suggest something that sounds reasonable either let it happen automatically or call for a skill, ability or attack roll, setting a DC based upon whether you think the task would be easy, average or hard.
Unfortunately the PF core rulebook doesn't seem to provide a table of general DC examples (e.g. what was on p64 of the 3.5 PHB) however you can find the equivalent in the SRD here.
Basically my advice is the same as the 4e DMG's famour page 42:
Actions the Rules Don’t Cover
Your presence as the Dungeon Master is what makes D&D such a great game. You make it possible for the players to try anything they can imagine. That means it’s your job to resolve unusual actions when the players try them.
Use the “DM’s Best Friend”: This simple guideline helps you adjudicate any unusual situation: An especially favorable circumstance gives a +2 bonus to a check or an attack roll (or it gives combat advantage). A particularly unfavorable circumstance gives a –2 penalty.
Cast the Action as a Check: If a character tries an action that might fail, use a check to resolve it. To do that, you need to know what kind of check it is and what the DC is.
Attacks: If the action is essentially an attack, use an attack roll. It might involve a weapon and target AC, or it might just be a Strength or Dexterity check against any defense. For an attack, use the appropriate defense of the target. Use an opposed check for anything that involves a contest between two creatures.
Other Checks: If the action is related to a skill (Acrobatics and Athletics cover a lot of the stunts characters try in combat), use that check. If it is not an obvious skill or attack roll, use an ability check.
They claim that in real life, people did such things even in proper war and not just to light areas.
It's right that flame arrows have been used during war. Mostly to set things like a straw-roof on fire.
For things like that I'd use a home made flame arrow like the spark spell (minus the size limit which I as a HR replaced by GM fiat to make it able to set something like a hey bale on fire with it).
If your players want to hurt someone with that arrow I'd either use the torch rules (-4 to hit because it's an improvised weapon, deals 1 point of fire in addition to it's normal damage) or tell them to buy the RAW slow burn arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammu nition/ammunition-bow-arrow-slow-burn)
'Cover the tip (of an arrow) in a rag and set it on fire', 'dip the arrow in oil, set it alight and fire', so as to get light into a slightly distant room. Now my conundrum is, how do I handle setting arrows on fire to be used as light sources? They claim that in real life, people did such things even in proper war and not just to light areas. I disallowed it at first and told them I'd head to the forums to see if it's possible.
I'd follow the same rules for lighting a flask of oil: it takes a full-round action to prepare the arrow, and a 50% chance that the arrow lights successfully.
If it strikes a creature, I'd say it converts the arrow's damage to fire damage, or adds +1d3 fire damage to the injury. Something like that.
My other problem is, they told me that they should be able to hear shuffling from the goblins in nearby rooms (the goblins weren't attempting any forms of stealth checks). When I told them they'd have to actively roll perception, they complained that 'if a dragon roared, would I have to actively roll to hear that too?'. I don't want to use the idea of passive perception because it still feels meta-gamey and only for the sake of taking out the job of ACTUALLY being careful and trying to hear enemies (only passive perception check I'd PROBABLY allow, is a flat perception skill like if a character had +5 to his perception, that's all he gets). Just what kind of sound would require an ACTIVE check to hear it and what would the DC even be?
It depends on the situation, but it is not unreasonable for you to ask your players to tell you when they want to make Perception checks. On the other hand, if a whole bunch of creatures were stumbling around not trying to be stealthy, it is reasonable that they could be heard not requiring a Perception check at all. This is very much a GM's call thing, and obviously the players weren't happy with your call. These things happen sometimes.
The problem is that the Perception description vaguely describes it as reacting to "observable stimulus" and it's arguable whether hearing the goblins, depending on what it is they were doing, was "observable stimulus."
My personal method is to ask my players to make a series of Perception rolls at the start of game--say about 5 of them at a time. I write them all down and then when they hit an area where they might hear activity, I just check the pre-rolled results to see if they notice the activity.
This gives player agency as to the fact that it's their roles, but also keeps the element of surprise in the GM's favor as they don't necessarily know when the rolls apply. This is for relatively passive observations, they still need to let me know if they are actively searching for something of course.
And yes, the dragon argument is a distraction, they are definitely two different situations.
On marching, when the group clears out a room and proceed to head down the dungeon, they claim they ought to be able to march at the same time rather than each taking a move action. Last dungeon I told them they should each make moves to get to new areas, how else would I handle such a thing? If I DO allow them to march, my fear is that when they enter into an area and are suddenly ambushed, I would not know how to play out their positions. Are they all clustered up like in a proper marching situation or is one of them ahead of the others due to his move action being first?
Like the others, our groups declare "marching order." We do NOT govern non-combat movement by move actions--that would take forever!
But instead the party will say, "Okay, I'm in front, Bob is behind me, Cleric and Wizard are beside each other, and Sneaky's in the back. We all have about a 5 foot space gap between us" (or whatever) -- or people will just set up their miniatures in their marching order.
That way you don't need to count movement, but you know more or less where everyone's standing when they enter an area of encounter.
The interesting thing is I think this method has always been assumed in the games I play in, which comes back from olden times of playing oldskool D&D but I don't think it's described or suggested in the rules anywhere.
The player has been firing arrows for a while and I have no idea how to track the use and I'm not too sure he'll be thrilled at the prospect of doing it himself.
If he's using a bow it's his job to track his ammo usage.
That's like playing a mage and casting spells all day because tracking spell usage is to boring.there are always durable arrows, which don't breake when they hit.
So if you win a battle you can recover them.
Or he could learn craft arrows and you rule that he is using the time the wizard needs to prepare his spalls to craft all those arrows he needs for that day.
Thank you all for your tips and information. I mainly ask about the arrow because only ONE of the party members can see in the dark (aasimar) and the rest are forced to rely on the ONE guy who's carrying a torch (dual wielding fighter refuses to give up DPR and I sadly keep forgetting to apply partial concealment when he attacks in dim light). My biggest concern is them using this method as an exploit to avoid problems that come with fighting in darkness but ALSO I'm concerned about how to run 'I fire my arrow in a straight arc' when they want to use it to pinpoint enemy locations, which while a good idea makes me wonder how to handle that mechanically (what does he roll? If he fails, where would it go? SHOULD I make him roll for a simple task?).
I would argue that a flaming arrow is not a reliable light source--it probably only provides enough light as a candle and is prone to going out. Flaming arrows are designed to be lit and immediately used, they are not going to hold a flame like a torch.
For noticing enemies in the light of the arrow as it flies by, I would roll a Perception check as arrows move VERY fast--you need the check to determine if you caught anything at all while it was moving.
The DC is to you to determine. I'd say DC 20 or vs the target's Stealth if the target is hiding.
My other advice would be not to sweat the light and concealment rules too much. They are a pain in the ass; talk to your players about how you can make it easier on both yourself and them.
As for the perception check, to give more information about the goblins in question, they were simply gambling at the time and not paying attention to their surroundings (not even moving, just rolling dice as part of gambling). I was mainly worried because I was wondering, when should I ask the players to roll (reactive check) their perception modifier (or if I/they pre-roll it), would it be 10 feet before the next room? 20ft? TECHNICALLY the roll would apply at each square when there's sound available. Should it also be at the most realistically first chance they'd get to hear the sound (like if the first chance to hear it is within 60ft of the next room, is THAT the one and only time I ask (or pre-roll) it?)?
This is all really on you and your common sense. I'd have them roll once when they came within say 20 feet of the area. If goblins are gambling and thus probably being loud and laughing, once you got closer to the room you would probably be able to hear them without needing a check.
Otherwise, the Perception skill description is actually detailed enough to give you guidelines as to when to roll and what the DC modifiers are.
To the case of the marching order, I was mainly asking because I was curious as to how to manage an ambush within a dungeon (all done within small locales, not over long distances, rooms aren't spaced that far apart since the map I use isn't that big (it IS big, but not big enough to accomodate a dungeon big enough that enemies nearby wouldn't see/hear battle immediately (first one was a cave with no doors between rooms and hallways)). The idea was that enemies would be able to take advantage of attacking an adventurer that suddenly got closer to him than the rest of the group.
Designing ambushes are hard. But basically once you know what marching order is, you can determine when the ambush leader sees the person in front. Determine whether the person in front can see the ambush leader. If they can't, the ambushing attackers get to attack them in a surprise round. Then do combat as usual. Look up the surprise round rules in the combat section for more information.
Personally, I'd make it easier on yourself by letting your ambushing enemies be temporarily invisible having used cheap potions of vanish or some such.
Another problem I have is that the dual wielding player (when rolling for stats, I stupidly suggested heroic rolling (2d6+6), he now has 18str, 18 dex, 15,15,12,10), not wanting to lose DPR, decided that the next area he encounters, he will simply latch a lantern to his belt so as to have light every time he enters a dark area without having to give up one hand. If it's possible then sure, but that kind of defeats the purpose of having dark areas if every player can simply attach a hanging flashlight (360 radius) to their belts, with the only benefits extending to ranged enemies. This seems to ring possible for ANYTHING, including even sunrods which can simply be shoved into an opening in clothing or hung like a necklace.
Honestly, if the lantern is being lit by normal fire, I'd say he'd be at risk of burning himself. There's no rules for that, but GM gets to make calls like that based on common sense.
On the other hand, I'm surprised no one uses the light spell or dancing lights spell to see by. Those are at-will cantrips.
And either way, as the TWFer, he shouldn't be asked to be the lantern bearer. He should just stick close to the person who is. I'm seeing some kind of flaw in the logic of the players here, he's trying to fix a "problem" that shouldn't really exist.
Eventually they're going to get high enough level that it's not going to matter anyway--they can continual flame or have one person carry an everburning torch, not to mention eventually get spells, class abilities, and items that grant darkvision, etc.
Also, if I may say, it seems like darkness causes you a lot of problems. If it's causing this many dilemmas, have you considered just sending them through a lit dungeon?
I also wanted to ask about how to track arrow usage without it getting tedious. The player has been firing arrows for a while and I have no idea how to track the use and I'm not too sure he'll be thrilled at the prospect of doing it himself.
To the player: tough titty. Tracking ammo IS the player's job, and that is definitely not something you should be doing. You as GM have more than enough work to do.
Most character sheets HAVE ammo tally areas on them, all you do is note how many you started with and tick off the ones you used, this is not hard at all to do. If the player is unable to draw tally marks, I advise making sure your players have basic math skills and have opposable thumbs before recruiting them (sorry but I'm just finding this a bit unbelievable, and any indignation is NOT aimed at you personally, I promise). The only complication for arrow tracking is if you decide to retrieve arrows you fired and missed with (50% chance of retrieval).
I AM tempted to simply tell him that a batch of 40 arrows are expended per dungeon (though in bigger ones, he'd certainly expend more).
This isn't gonna work out if he gets Rapid Shot and/or increases in BAB that he can fire more than once per round--a higher level archer will use tons of arrows fast. I'd just make him do the counting like the big kids do.
The poor guy (ranger) is also not happy with how ranged weapons don't benefit damage-wise from dexterity and how good composite bows are expensive, am I missing something? His ranged damage doesn't compare well against the melee'ers in the group and ranged fighters are plain simply superior to rangers in ALMOST every aspect (rangers still get spells and an animal companion).
First, at low levels, ranged weapons are not going to beat melee weapons in damage usually. This is the tradeoff for being able to hurt things from far away. The guy with the greatsword may deal more damage, but he's also at more immediate risk of taking damage.
Second, make sure that a) he has Point Blank Shot and b) Is remember to apply the benefits of Point Blank Shot to enemies within 30 feet. Sure, it's only +1 damage, but that can make a difference sometimes.
Third, ranged attacks get more awesome with levels as you get more feats that allow you to fire multiple arrows, shoot farther, etc. etc. etc. It is one of the things that pays off with a good build in time, tell the player to be patient and remind him his role is not DPR it is ranged support which is different.
Fourth, what's his favored enemy? That can also help him get bonuses to damage. If he picked something obscure and you want to throw him a bone, let him retrain his favored enemy to something your party is more likely to encounter more frequently.
Fifth, bows get a x3 critical multiplier. Only on a 20, but it can be nice. At higher levels, getting Improved Critical might be an option--only boosts the crit range to 19-20 but if he tends to roll well, could be worth it.
Also, can a familiar occupy the same square as an ally (and end its turn there)?
Yes, as long as it is no larger than Tiny. Here's the rule you're looking for:
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Since the creature in question is moving to an ally's square, they of course don't have to attack it. :)
This group is horribly done, several guys rolled for their stats (heroic way) and got powerful stats and one went with a 25 point buy system while the other went with a 15 point build, making a mismatched group
Okay, first, this needs to be fixed, for both your and their benefit. Not gonna ask why this was so varied to start with, it just needs to be fixed. Can you ask the group to redo their stats? Let THEM decide which method they use, but it all needs to be the same method.
If not, at the very least, have the guy who build the 15 point buy character rebuild at 25 like the other guy.
that if I raise the CR's, it challenges some and annihilates everyone else and the opposite way means the weaker PCs are heroically struggling while the stronger PCs are cleaving foes left and right. At level 1, they cleared three CR3 encounters with only ONE PC falling in battle and ONLY because three goblins got lucky when they targetted/ganked him (one of them even got a critical). He went from full HP to -8 in one round, otherwise, no one lost more than 1 hp the entire time (not per fight but per the entire dungeon). I read on here that dropping a bugbear on the group would be overkill and that I make it that he accidentally drops his mace...the bugbear was dropped in two rounds (three attacks) without successfully hitting a single player.
Generally speaking, fights with multiple monsters will always be harder than fights with a single monster, simply because even a very powerful monster might only get to hit once and nothing else, but multiple monsters all get to go. So yeah, multiple goblins CAN be a tougher fight than a single bugbear.
Otherwise, a good way to make fights more challenging without adding more monsters is to take into account stuff like terrain and environmental difficulties. If the "weak" guy is really Acrobatic, then he gets a chance to shine when they're fighting on slippery ground, or it's raining, etc. This means you don't increase chances of death because you added a monster who deals too much damage in a single blow, but it still becomes a challenge to them because they have to get creative with what's surrounding them.
I'd recommend that you put the rules down, step away, and take a deep breath. You're stressing too much!
Years ago, I picked up a game called "Feng Shui", written by the mighty Robin Laws. While the game's rules were noting spectacular, I was deeply impressed by its play philosophy. Two relevant suggestions were "don't worry about fiddly rule bits that aren't helping your game" and "let your characters be heroic" (which can include dying dramatically, whan needed). Let us look at your concerns so far:
'Cover the tip (of an arrow) in a rag and set it on fire', 'dip the arrow in oil, set it alight and fire', so as to get light into a slightly distant room. Now my conundrum is, how do I handle setting arrows on fire to be used as light sources?
They want to launch flaming arrows as light sources? While that may not be as easy as some movies would suggest, it has been done historically, so it's clearly possible. There doesn't seem to be any compelling game balance need to limit it, either. Therefore, let them launch away: Decide what you think is reasonable (10 ft radius of bright light or whatever?), then go for it!
There may be some problems with this plan: They may unintentionally start a fire, or some potential allies may perceive their actions as an attack. All in all, it sounds like they REALLY don't want to stumble into an ambush...
My other problem is, they told me that they should be able to hear shuffling from the goblins in nearby rooms (the goblins weren't attempting any forms of stealth checks). When I told them they'd have to actively roll perception, they complained that 'if a dragon roared, would I have to actively roll to hear that too?'. I don't want to use the idea of passive perception because it still feels meta-gamey and only for the sake of taking out the job of ACTUALLY being careful and trying to hear enemies (only passive perception check I'd PROBABLY allow, is a flat perception skill like if a character had +5 to his perception, that's all he gets). Just what kind of sound would require an ACTIVE check to hear it and what would the DC even be?
When deciding your baseline, decide what they reasonably could hear. They're "taking 10", so nobody's making particular efforts to hear. They're also a bit distracted, presumably lighting arrows, firing them, and trying not to burn themselves with melting or burning pitch droplets. They thus suffer a -5 to their Perception checks. They don't seem to be very stealthy themselves, so I might also apply a penalty to their listening Perception equal to the worst armor penalty in the party (After all, it's hard to hear a distant conversation when Joe the fighter is clanking and rattling right next to you...). For the sake of example, let's call this another -4.
This means that their paranoid ranger (Perception +8) normally hears conversations (including inane goblin chatter) at about 90 feet. He would likely spot a careless goblin at 130 ft. If they generally "Take 10", apply a slight modifier to represent the odd goblin who is habuitually more (or less) stealthy than the norm. Some might be missed.
Of course, once creatures see a flaming arrow come sailing down the hallway, the chances of surprising the party's enemies drops to zero.
If I DO allow them to march, my fear is that when they enter into an area and are suddenly ambushed, I would not know how to play out their positions. Are they all clustered up like in a proper marching situation or is one of them ahead of the others due to his move action being first?
I'll sometimes play without using a battlemat or even without properly using the initiative rules, instead describing the scene, sketching a quick picture to show where everyone is, then giving feedback about how they move. Such an approach works particularly well for some situations, such as when a fighter wants to head off the enemy from reaching his 'squishier' allies. He can just declare something like "I'm moving to keep myself between the orc leader and Gek Feeblethews, our wizard." Such an approach requires flexibility: You don't want your players upset because they all ate a fireball when they thought they had spread too far apart to be hit together.
Another problem I have is that the dual wielding player (when rolling for stats, I stupidly suggested heroic rolling (2d6+6), he now has 18str, 18 dex, 15,15,12,10), not wanting to lose DPR, decided that the next area he encounters, he will simply latch a lantern to his belt so as to have light every time he enters a dark area without having to give up one hand. If it's possible then sure, but that kind of defeats the purpose of having dark areas if every player can simply attach a hanging flashlight (360 radius) to their belts, with the only benefits extending to ranged enemies. This seems to ring possible for ANYTHING, including even sunrods which can simply be shoved into an opening in clothing or hung like a necklace.
Darkness isn't a major obstacle for most characters. Simple cantrips can shut it down, so don't worry about it. Let them see! Once they stop worrying about whether they can see, you can torment them in many interesting ways: Darkness shuts down most light (most magical or artificial light sources within the spell radius fail to illuminate). Enemies can sunder or steal light sources, high winds can extinguish them, or mist, cobwebs, and smoke can obstruct vision.
I also wanted to ask about how to track arrow usage without it getting tedious. The player has been firing arrows for a while and I have no idea how to track the use and I'm not too sure he'll be thrilled at the prospect of doing it himself. I AM tempted to simply tell him that a batch of 40 arrows are expended per dungeon (though in bigger ones, he'd certainly expend more).
To account for minor expenses, agree on a "lifestyle" cost that accounts for the adventurers' petty expenses. This might include money spent for their room at the inn, food, minor gear repairs, new clothing, replacing ammunition, carousing, research and training expenses, gifts, church donations, and other "off camera" expenditures. Those who want to be cheap can be considered to live in fleabag flop houses and suffer from thefts or diseases. The adventurers' lifstyles can provide great adventuring hooks!
The poor guy (ranger) is also not happy with how ranged weapons don't benefit damage-wise from dexterity and how good composite bows are expensive, am I missing something? His ranged damage doesn't compare well against the melee'ers in the group and ranged fighters are plain simply superior to rangers in ALMOST every aspect (rangers still get spells and an animal companion).
Rangers do have other advantages, and can also take ranged feats with a lower Dex than the fighter could. This allows them to pump up their Strength a bit.
Also, can a familiar occupy the same square as an ally (and end its turn there)?
Yep.
This group is horribly done, several guys rolled for their stats (heroic way) and got powerful stats and one went with a 25 point buy system while the other went with a 15 point build, making a mismatched group that if I raise the CR's, it challenges some and annihilates everyone else and the opposite way means the weaker PCs are heroically struggling while the stronger PCs are cleaving foes left and right.
You'd be wise to meet with your players and request some changes be made. Explain the problem and have them dial their characters down to 20 point builds. Adjust the magic items found to subtly favor those characters that seem to be lagging behind. Strictly limit the items that can be purchased and don't allow them to commission custom items.
Remember, you can always give the players more, but it's bloody hard to take things away: Be tough on them! If they never complain about your brutal encounters and the game's lack of treasure, you're not being tough enough on them...
One more tip for tracking ammo:
Grab a couple of those and have the archer mark off one numer for each arrow shot.
If he marks them off with just a \ he can add a / (completing the X) for each arrow that can be salvaged (missed arrows have a 50% chance to remain intact). So it's easy to see how many arrows are gone after each combat.
On things like opposed Stealth/Perceptionchecks, assume that one said or the other takes 10. If the players roll Perception, the DC is the enemy's Stealth+10; if the players are trying tosneak, the DC is the enemy's Perception +10. Simple and saves time. In this case, since the goblins are trying to sneak, roll their Stealth and compare it to the PC's Perception. Don't forget to account for things like closed doors and the like.
For missed arrows, you can do three things to keep it practical. Assume that literally 50% of misses survived (so if he misses twice he always gets one arrow back). Or roll d100 and he recovers that percentage of his missed arrows this time (round to the nearest arrow), which will average 50% over the course of the game. Or roll dX-1 (where X = number of arrows missed+1) and he recovers that many arrows.
Also remember that arrows which hit are not salvageable.
As for the perception check, to give more information about the goblins in question, they were simply gambling at the time and not paying attention to their surroundings (not even moving, just rolling dice as part of gambling). I was mainly worried because I was wondering, when should I ask the players to roll (reactive check) their perception modifier (or if I/they pre-roll it), would it be 10 feet before the next room? 20ft? TECHNICALLY the roll would apply at each square when there's sound available. Should it also be at the most realistically first chance they'd get to hear the sound (like if the first chance to hear it is within 60ft of the next room, is THAT the one and only time I ask (or pre-roll) it?)?
In this particular situation, I'd most likely do it this way:
Roll (or pre-roll / ask players to roll) a d20 for each PC to use for perception checks to notice the goblins, and use the same roll for the entire situation, with the distance modifier being reduced for each 10 ft the group moves closer.
So the goblins would be heard at the earliest point one of the rolls, with appropriate distance modifiers, would allow one of the PCs to hear the goblins.
This silly thing i find is if boths sides here each other on the side of the door.
No one wants to open the door as it takes some kind of action, so you get delays/readies all round
i believe DND-next is making opening a door a freebie action! which sound very sensible
i do hope the OPs group settles a bit
I want the characters to feel heroic, but they turned what was supposed to be a difficult dungeon into a cakewalk. I don't mind toning down the rules, but the problem is that some will benefit more than others and I fear I'll end up with dungeons whose terrain doesn't stand out and the players treating every combat as a mere tank and spank.
I can sympathize with you there. I'm not sure that I communicated my point as well as I could have. I certainly don't mean that you should tone down the rules to reduce the challenge the characters face, making them seem 'heroic' because they steamroller through everything in their way. I had the impression that your desire to properly adhere to the rules seemed to be working against you at the moment. By establishing a precedent for occasional use of GM fiat, you make it easier for the players to accept other GM shortcuts.
To revisit some of your concerns:
You'd be fully in your rights to insist that fire arrows must hit properly to illuminate an area. Since they're shooting blind and can't see the target square, this might be a simple 50% miss chance roll. Arrows that fail to hit properly simply go out or fail to give useful illumination. (I would also have the party start a fire at some point, but I'm evil that way.)
As long as only one character carries light, enemies would be wise to take out that light source. All it takes is a simple bucket of water to plunge them into darkness. My point was that using the light level against them is fine, but most adventurers soon find ways around such plans.
If you wanted to, you could make a simple "Humanoid/Goblin Pastime Chart" to determine what they're doing when the PCs approach. The goblins might be singing or arguing and easy to hear. They might be tormenting some poor abducted poodle, or they might be shuffling around (as your players theorized). On the other hand, they might be sulking, sleeping, eating, whittling, sharpening something, or quietly waiting to ambush some poor slob. Their current activity would determine how much noise they made.
Fellow DM, here's my idea: "Ok, sorry guys. You all know i am a little new at this, so we're going to give this campaign a fresh re-start. Lets go for a 25* point build, Core and APG only to start."
* 25 pts is really generous.
No one had a Light cantrip? really?
Ammo? Once they get to the point where it's a trivial expense. it's better not to track them, just have them spend some funds every time they get back to town on upkeep/lifestyle.
@Umbranus
That's actually an amazing sheet, I'll be sure to print one out and hand it to the ranger!
Sure you can do that.
But it's not some kind of sheet I invented it is a lotto ticket. Normally you mark of 6 of the numbers in each box and with that you can take part in the lottery (after paying for it of course).
Where I live they are laying around in the hundreds in every shop where you can play lotto.
So nobody would care if you took 2-3 home with you and used them for something else.
But I'm glad I could help.
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cmastah, I'm going to start from scratch and note this:
As GM, you have two, equally important priorities:
1. Make sure the players are having fun
2. Make sure YOU, as GM, are having fun
I cannot stress enough that you must make 2 as much a priority as 1. Maybe even moreso. If you are not having fun, or your fun is being all too often interspersed with being stressed, then the game is going to tank sooner or later. If the GM is not having fun, it affects the players' fun. I am detecting a lot of undertones of stress and frustration in your messages--certainly also a lot of eagerness to learn and do right by your players which is great, but those undertones are still there and based on my own experience as a GM, if you let things carry on the way they are going, things are only going to get worse.
I really, really dig that you are trying to bend over backwards to make sure your players are happy and cater to their needs, but it is your job as GM to create boundaries and consistent rules. Sometimes that means saying, "No you can't do that," or better, "I can't say yes because..." And absolutely often it does mean getting creative with the rules and finding ways, like you are very awesomely doing, to let the characters do stuff they think up, and it is awesome to see players getting creative with solving the problems they see before them. But that doesn't mean you let your players steamroller over your game, which I am starting to worry that you are perilously close to doing.
For the character build issue -- YOU NEED TO HAVE CHARACTER BUILD CONSISTENCY.
YOU NEED TO HAVE CHARACTER BUILD CONSISTENCY.
Or the power balance problems you are going to have are going to get worse. Not might. Not maybe. They will. And players with different builds are going to start resenting each other. They'll resent the guy with the ridiculous stats because he's outshining everyone. They'll resent the guy with the 15 point buy because he's too weak and isn't pulling his weight. And the fun will decrease dramatically. Remember priority 1.
And your attempts to try and please everyone and design challenges everyone can deal with will get harder and harder and you will learn it is impossible to please everyone and you will get more stressed and more frustrated. Remember priority 2.
I like DrDeth's suggestion of asking everyone to start over and create new characters from scratch, all with the same point buy build. It puts everyone on a level playing field. It also allows some folks to rethink some decisions, like the cleric deciding not to take light as one of his orisons.
And remember, IT CANNOT HURT TO ASK.
What I would suggest is this: sitting down with them (or emailing or however you prefer to confer) -- and say, something along the lines of
"Look guys, we're all new to this system, and I've realized I've made some mistakes with the character building rules. And while you might be happy with how you built your characters, it's getting really hard for me to keep up with you and design challenges because you all are so different and you lack some basic stuff most parties have. If things keep going the way they are, I'm not going to be able to handle this very well.
Now that we've gotten some play experience under our belt, I would like to ask if we can start over. I know you're really attached to your characters, but everyone used a different method of building and it's seriously messing the game balance up. I'd really appreciate it, as a huge favor to me, as your friend and game master, if you'd be willing to rebuild your characters, using a single point buy method. I want everyone to have fun, but I'm not going to be able to run for you very well if we stick to things the way things are."
To the HighRollerGuy, apologize profusely, promise to make it up to him in some way. To the "I want to be realistic guy" say that that's really all well and good, but you can't accommodate that in your game right now when you're all so inexperienced---the game really needs everyone to use the same stat generation method to work. Further you're running a heroic game, and that requires characters with heroic stats--and maybe down the line when everyone's more experienced, you'll run a lower power game where he can build as he likes, but not right now.
I know you don't want to say things things to these guys because they are your friends, and you do not want to disappoint them.
But you are also these guys' friend, and friends support each other and do favors for each other when things go awry. If they are not willing to let go of something as absolutely trivial as a well rolled die or a favorite point buy system and would prefer to selfishly stick to their methods than do their friend a favor and help him out by rebuilding, then something's seriously wrong with this "friendship." And I'd like to believe these guys are as good a friend to you as you want to be to them, so I really think you've got no risk by asking them to do you this favor.
Whatever you do, best of luck, and don't sweat it -- part of GMing is making mistakes and learning from them. Often the best moments of GMing I've had is when things have gone completely off the rails and I've had to make stuff up off the top of my head--and once I stopped stressing about it and rolling with the punches, everyone had a good time, myself included.
And that, in the end, is the point.
Normally I would just favorite a post, but DeathQuaker's deserves a 15 minute standing ovation!
One of the most difficult parts of being a GM is saying no. But you have to give the players limits or there is nothing to overcome and strive for, and things only get worse once the players start getting into the higher levels.
Don't get me wrong, you want to allow the players to be creative, and have their characters do cool stuff, but if that creativity extends to bending the rules, things get wonky.
PS When it comes to lighting conditions, and other things that can consistently hamper the players in combat, there is a fine line between challenge and frustration. One or two combats in dim light can be ok, a whole dungeon - no way.
cmastah, my advice is relax.
Your goals and concerns are admirable but I get the impression you're stressing out over micro-topics.
Flaming arrows? Let it happen. Wing it. Make it a standard action to light... chews up a round. Let them burn for a minute; ten rounds. Let them work like a torch otherwise. The game already has light as a cantrip... it's readily available, so let your players do essentially the same thing (make crappy light) their way. Shrug.
Light tactics/player abilities? Think bigger. The light spell and torches have a small radius. Hint: it's not as big as monsters' darkvision has range. So there's nothing keeping orcs from sniping from the darkness. If your players want to waste a standard action to illuminate the snipers' area, who are you to stop them. That IS the dynamic that light levels gives a battle. If people want to wear light sources, let them. The light travels with them. Nothing keeps the enemy from falling back to retain their advantage. Or... you know... extinguishing the light? I hear lanterns are kind of susceptible to create water.
Arrow tracking? At first or maybe second level the answer is: your players do it. They can make hashes on their character sheet. Bought 20 arrows at town? Got 20 hash marks on your sheet? You're out. Beyond the first level or two players have access to extradimensional spaces, or can reasonably pay to have specialty quivers. Basically, by 2nd arrow-management is such an unimportant aspect of the game that it's not (in my games) worth thinking about. It's like asking 13th level characters to fork over 2sp for a meal. Do that and you're going to get players slapping a platinum down and saying "don't charge anyone for food for the next month".
Marching methods? Abstract the process. You don't need to be in round-by-round mode in between combats. Just get your players to decide their marching order (as mentioned by other people in the thread). It's tedious to micro-manage squares. Assume they step on traps unless they find them. <Grin> Just let them move as much as they want, together, until something happens. Then say "hold it, back up your minis to THERE, because..."
Perception skill woes? Fact is this should be passive for a lot of uses. As long as I don't have my ears plugged, I'm going to hear certain things without trying. There's a difference between putting your ear up to a door to listen (active) and just noticing the clouds are rolling in (passive). It's up to you to decide the DCs for things. Maybe the enemies aren't being terribly loud at the moment. Shrug.
Character stats are munged? Well, yeah, that's awkward, but it's water under the bridge. As long as the players (and you) are having fun, it's really okay. You can adjust challenges to make things harder for the TWF guy while not slaughtering everyone, but that's up to you. Incorporeal creatures for instance aren't going to take much physical damage, but magic works great. Swarms are good. Also, high AC creatures are going to be hard for him to hit while they might not have great saves, making magic work well. If you've got another fighter type, that could be rough, but it's still livable. Basically, have the bad guys focus their attacks mostly on TWF dude. He's beefy, he's bad-ass. Let him be. His job is to hold the bad guys' attention while everyone else takes them down. Shrug.
My point is... your problems don't have to be problems. Don't sweat the fine-tuning.
I'd say people can hear things without actively listening for them, so if the goblins were noisy (talking loud, eating, fighting) you may very well hear things from a distance away without listening for them. However, you have to consider the environment as well.. cramped, brick walled tunnels will carry noises a heck of a lot better than natural caves with big open spaces... heck, just the holes in the floor and ceiling, cracks in the walls, and all that associated wind and air circulation would play HELL on where noises were coming from, and thats not even accounting for a party of adventurers laughing, talking, grab-assing and clomping around in their armor. So maybe throw them some signs when circumstances dictate (especially if they are asking you what they hear or it just makes sense that they're close enough -- If they are the ones sneaky around and not the goblins, they may be entitled to be gathering more intel and hearing more without rolling the dice. The USEFULNESS of information beyond if there MIGHT be something there should involve dice rolling.... and if this annoys you, remember you're the GM and those noises could be coming from anywhere. Put a couple of rooms with huge holes in the floor. There is effectively NOTHING down there except a mile-drop into rushing water... but MAN does that cavern catch noises and spread them around. The third time they follow the voices of goblins back to the same hole from a different direction my bet is they'll stop busting your balls for you to do their perception work for them. Or lead them to cracks in the wall where they can hear stuff, but it's tactically useless noises or info, and the cracks have no direct path or way of ingress to what they are hearing. "You mean I've been tracking a snoring noise coming from a crack in a wall?" GM: "Yep." Player: "And there is no perceivable way through or around to this area?" GM: "Yep."
As for the burning arrow thing, oil-soaked burning rags might be a good means of providing fire damage, but they are a pretty s+&!ty means of lighting a room. Have an arrow light into a room full of burning garbage and have the players quickly beset by smoke, HORRIBLE SMELL, and monsters from every direction on full alert closing from every direction to find out what the hell is going on... or have one of their brilliant light arrows land in the center of a valuable tapestry they could otherwise have sold for 1000gp (it's worth 50 now cut up for remnants) ... and things like that and they'll likewise get gun-shy with the fire-arrows as a means of light. Heck, have it spread and cause a fire in a room they have to move through... maybe they'll wonder what loot might have burned or melted in the blaze... my point is you can discourage this sort of thing. Burning arrows might be useful combat wise, but they'd have short duration, would likely be smoky and unreliable (could go out on impact with hard surfaces, or snuff out landing in or around damp or smothering substances (like dirt or sand)... list goes on and on.
Also, unless they have a means of making the arrows affix to walls when they hit, little fires on the ground do little in a practical sense to light a room, perhaps casting longer shadows than they are providing viable light! There is a reason we generally hang our lights on the ceiling, and torches and candle sconces are placed at eye level or higher... it gets the light where you WANT IT. Campfires can light a decent area, but ever notice the first object screening a campfire makes it totally dark behind it? Factor in that every time they do that they are WRECKING their night/low-light vision and it can actually be something the GM can argue AGAINST their advantage. Like a boss!
I apologize if I understood your post wrong, but it seems like you invited the players to try anything they can think of and then seek to make things difficult for them in return.
Does the arrow cast light? Of course! How much is up to you. I would err on the side of rewarding clever new ideas, but not always repeated ones.
Can they hear goblins not trying to be silent? Of course they could. I would set the DC at zero, but modify it for distance and closed doors, etc. Some characters won't need to roll.
Your problem with marching order moving down a hall issue is ridiculous, imo. Initiative order is for combat and when the dm decides that precise timing is important enough to slow down game play. More often than not it is okay to simply set the characters on the map where they would likely be. Your job is to facilitate the story, not micro manage.
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Here are some interesting links about flaming arrows if you decide to use them:
theminiaturespage.com
wikipedia
At the end of the round, the turn, and the day -- you're holding all of the cards. The next time you get into a nit-picking discussion about just how impossible what he proposes is (striding at full speed into the darkness on a trail he can't see to an enemy he can't see) ... disempower him. There needn't be any further discussion beyond "You can't." and if he continues to propose otherwise, remind him he can have the final word when he starts his own gaming group and GMs for them.
Or remind them they shouldn't be tempting you, with their spurious justifications for what they should be able to see and hear. Remind them they are in the goblin's natural habitat, and they best be thankful for every wisp of clinging darkness and distorting acoustics, as there wouldn't be a prayer in hell otherwise to prevent every humanoid in that cave from descending upon them all at once.
If he's really irredeemable (or you want to have fun with it) create a special incorporeal or outsider monster with class levels that is basically the guardian for standards and practices relating to the forces of nature, magic and reality as regards to heroes. THAT character is showing up as a problem on his beat, bending the laws of nature and physics and reality for his own selfish ends. The first time he gets some ability damage or a level drained for meta-gaming the s&#+ out of the situation (or the GM) he may finally wake up to how heavy handed he's being with how heavy handed you're being.
The alternative, is to talk it out with him -- tell him no means no, and he better learn that now before he starts interacting more with girls and this kind of density gets him in serious trouble. (snicker) ... if he still pulls the same shenanigans (because lets face it, after a certain point he's trying to wear you down) -- show him the door (mace optional.)