In a few weeks I'll be starting to play through the Skull & Shackles AP and I'd like some help building a Beastmorph/Vivisectionist Alchemist that can act as sort of a main fighter type. The rest of the party consists of a Magus, a Cleric or an Oracle, a Witch, and a Bard and we're using a 20 point buy for character creation. What I'm looking at right now as far as race and stats go is:
Half Orc
Str 18
Int 14
Wis 12
Dex 12
Con 14
Cha 7
My main concern is trying to decide if I should dip a level in Fighter or Barbarian, and if so, which class. I'm planning on going for the Master Chymist prestige class and the AP caps out at level 15, so I can't really afford to dip into Fighter or Barbarian for more than a level and still have access to the Discoveries/Advanced Mutagens I'm looking to get. I'm mainly looking at the two classes for the armor proficiencies to cover up for the low AC from Light armor as well as a low Dex, but the martial weapons proficiences are a nice, added bonus as well for when I wont be using Feral Mutagen or don't have time to brew a new one.
If anyone with experience playing a Beastmorph/Vivisectionist Alchemist could give me advice on the benefits of the two classes combined with the Alchemist or whether I should even dip into another class at all, I'd be grateful.
I made the exact same character but for PFS play, and all I can really say is dam this character gets too powerful later on, even without the sneak attack. I dipped 1 lv into barbarian, you get +10 movement, martial weapon, medium armor and shield proficiencies and rage. If you take a 2nd lv in barbarian you could take the lesser fiend totem rage power which gives you a gore (primary natural) attack while raging. Fighter would give you 1-2 combat feats (depending on if you took 1 or 2 lvs), martial weapon, all armor and shield proficiencies.
If you dip, you should do it at 1 for the higher hp and BAB +1. I think you don't need to, though.
As far as armor goes... take the armor expert trait, and mithral breastplate has a 0 armor check penalty, which means there's no penalty for using it if not proficient. Long run, that should get you by.
My personal opinion, you shouldn't go Master Chymist at all, I'd rather have the full extract progression, higher level discoveries, and boons from beastmorph (like pounce!). Dipping is ultimiately a bad deal, but up front, it can be worth it. I'd do it for new proficiencies and class skills, so my top choices for dip would be Beastmaster Ranger or Cad Fighter. If fighting with the claws primarily instead of a 2H weapon, dipping for Crane Wing might be worth it, too.
If you just want a better weapon, consider being a Half-Elf instead of Half-Orc, and taking Ancestral Arms from APG instead of skill focus.
StreamOfTheSky wrote: If you dip, you should do it at 1 for the higher hp and BAB +1. I think you don't need to, though.
As far as armor goes... take the armor expert trait, and mithral breastplate has a 0 armor check penalty, which means there's no penalty for using it if not proficient. Long run, that should get you by.
My personal opinion, you shouldn't go Master Chymist at all, I'd rather have the full extract progression, higher level discoveries, and boons from beastmorph (like pounce!). Dipping is ultimiately a bad deal, but up front, it can be worth it. I'd do it for new proficiencies and class skills, so my top choices for dip would be Beastmaster Ranger or Cad Fighter. If fighting with the claws primarily instead of a 2H weapon, dipping for Crane Wing might be worth it, too.
If you just want a better weapon, consider being a Half-Elf instead of Half-Orc, and taking Ancestral Arms from APG instead of skill focus.
Interesting points. I hadn't considered the Armor Expert trait because I'd been looking at one regular trait and one campaign trait. I forgot the campaign traits are suggested, and I can also just work the starting location in to my background story.
As far as dipping in general, if I did, I'd definitely dip at first level. The added hit points are enough of an incentive for me to do that, not even considering the +1 base attack.
I'd have to look and see if there are other Discoveries that replicate it, but I was looking at the Master Chymist specifically for a couple of their Advanced Mutagens, specifically one that boosts their Will save and one that increases the damage dice of the Claw/Claw/Bite they get from Feral Mutation. I'll have to look into the Ranger and fighter builds you suggest to see the specifics of what they offer at first level.
The better weapon selection was a by-product of thinking about dipping in to Fighter or Barbarian. The main reason I was looking at the Half-Orc was that I could get proficiency with the Falchion and Greataxe and still take an alternate racial trait that gives me a +1 to all saves to help with my low Will defense. I could go for a better Will defense with the Half-Elf, but I wouldn't be able to take Ancestral Arms for a free proficiency.
Some Random Dood wrote: I made the exact same character but for PFS play, and all I can really say is dam this character gets too powerful later on, even without the sneak attack. I dipped 1 lv into barbarian, you get +10 movement, martial weapon, medium armor and shield proficiencies and rage. If you take a 2nd lv in barbarian you could take the lesser fiend totem rage power which gives you a gore (primary natural) attack while raging. Fighter would give you 1-2 combat feats (depending on if you took 1 or 2 lvs), martial weapon, all armor and shield proficiencies. I'd so love to take that second level of Barbarian if I dipped, I'm just not sure if I could afford to squeeze it in. The Gore attack would be great to have in addition to the other Claw/Claw Bite from Feral Mutation. I just wish the AP was designed for one or two more levels, but with an endpoint designed for level 15, things are really, really tight for squeezing things in to the build.
Excuse me, Trapper Beastmaster Ranger. Why not pick up trapfinding while you're at it as well? :)
Bakunin wrote: Interesting points. I hadn't considered the Armor Expert trait because I'd been looking at one regular trait and one campaign trait. I forgot the campaign traits are suggested, and I can also just work the starting location in to my background story.
As far as dipping in general, if I did, I'd definitely dip at first level. The added hit points are enough of an incentive for me to do that, not even considering the +1 base attack.
I'd have to look and see if there are other Discoveries that replicate it, but I was looking at the Master Chymist specifically for a couple of their Advanced Mutagens, specifically one that boosts their Will save and one that increases the damage dice of the Claw/Claw/Bite they get from Feral Mutation. I'll have to look into the Ranger and fighter builds you suggest to see the specifics of what they offer at first level.
The better weapon selection was a by-product of thinking about dipping in to Fighter or Barbarian. The main reason I was looking at the Half-Orc was that I could get proficiency with the Falchion and Greataxe and still take an alternate racial trait that gives me a +1 to all saves to help with my low Will defense. I could go for a better Will defense with the Half-Elf, but I wouldn't be able to take Ancestral Arms for a free proficiency.
For the advanced mutagens, I'd go for the one that doubles the duration of your mutagenic form, unless you're sure that you won't need it. About your weak will save, you could take the iron will feat or the indomitable faith trait for a +2 and +1 respectively to will saves. Those two plus a 12 wisdom and a +2 cloak of resistance would put your will save at +6 (+ whatever you get from class lvs), it should give you a decent chance at making those will saves unless the dc is quite high.
Later on once you get 2nd lv extracts I would suggest learning the alchemical allocation formula. It is probably one of the best 2nd lv extracts and one of the ones I use the most (along with barkskin). Then get a potion of heroism (CL doesn't really matter but higher CL lasts longer) for +2 to all saves/hit/skills.
StreamOfTheSky wrote: If you dip, you should do it at 1 for the higher hp and BAB +1. I think you don't need to, though.
As far as armor goes... take the armor expert trait, and mithral breastplate has a 0 armor check penalty, which means there's no penalty for using it if not proficient. Long run, that should get you by.
My personal opinion, you shouldn't go Master Chymist at all, I'd rather have the full extract progression, higher level discoveries, and boons from beastmorph (like pounce!). Dipping is ultimiately a bad deal, but up front, it can be worth it. I'd do it for new proficiencies and class skills, so my top choices for dip would be Beastmaster Ranger or Cad Fighter. If fighting with the claws primarily instead of a 2H weapon, dipping for Crane Wing might be worth it, too.
If you just want a better weapon, consider being a Half-Elf instead of Half-Orc, and taking Ancestral Arms from APG instead of skill focus.
If i was taking a ranger level or two i would giver serious consideration to the freebooter archetype. a move action for a party (and eventually crew) +1 to hit and damage seems rather nice to me.
One other thing I'm wondering about is if I should keep my stats as they are or possibly reduce my Strength by one to be able to be able to increase my Dexterity to 14. I've got to see if I need a 16 Intelligence, or if I can just get away with a 14 throughout the entire AP. Otherwise I'm pretty much stuck with just 3 ability score increases.
Bakunin wrote: One other thing I'm wondering about is if I should keep my stats as they are or possibly reduce my Strength by one to be able to be able to increase my Dexterity to 14. I've got to see if I need a 16 Intelligence, or if I can just get away with a 14 throughout the entire AP. Otherwise I'm pretty much stuck with just 3 ability score increases. I would lower strength a bit and either raise dex or int, wish I had done that with mine. Would that 14 int be without a headband of int? You could get away with it as long as you don't mind not getting an extra 4th lv extract from having 18 int. With a flat 14 int for the whole AP, I think that might be a little low later on, but you could probably make do if you don't mind not having an extra 3rd lv extract.
If I were to remake my alchemist I'd probably go for
Str 16
dex 14
con 14
int 15
wis 12
cha 7
With the 3 stat increases, 1 into int then 2 into either dex or con.
But since you will be the main fighter/melee in your group, I'd go for maybe
str 17
dex 14
con 14
int 14
wis 12
cha 7
With the 3 stat increases 1 into str, then the other 2 into whichever stat you want more of.
Also I would maybe drop vivisectionist unless you will be flanking or the enemy is somehow flatfooted/denied their dex a lot. Vivisectionist does quite a lot of damage if you can get your sneak attack, but otherwise their versatility is below a normal alchemists.
Some Random Dood wrote: Bakunin wrote: One other thing I'm wondering about is if I should keep my stats as they are or possibly reduce my Strength by one to be able to be able to increase my Dexterity to 14. I've got to see if I need a 16 Intelligence, or if I can just get away with a 14 throughout the entire AP. Otherwise I'm pretty much stuck with just 3 ability score increases. I would lower strength a bit and either raise dex or int, wish I had done that with mine. Would that 14 int be without a headband of int? You could get away with it as long as you don't mind not getting an extra 4th lv extract from having 18 int. With a flat 14 int for the whole AP, I think that might be a little low later on, but you could probably make do if you don't mind not having an extra 3rd lv extract.
If I were to remake my alchemist I'd probably go for
Str 16
dex 14
con 14
int 15
wis 12
cha 7
With the 3 stat increases, 1 into int then 2 into either dex or con.
But since you will be the main fighter/melee in your group, I'd go for maybe
str 17
dex 14
con 14
int 14
wis 12
cha 7
With the 3 stat increases 1 into str, then the other 2 into whichever stat you want more of.
Also I would maybe drop vivisectionist unless you will be flanking or the enemy is somehow flatfooted/denied their dex a lot. Vivisectionist does quite a lot of damage if you can get your sneak attack, but otherwise their versatility is below a normal alchemists. The 14 in Intelligence is without any Headband of Intellect. I'd probably be adding one or two of my ability score increases to my Intelligence, definitely adding one to Strength if I drop it to 17 to increase my Dexterity.
I'd definitely be planning on trying to get the flank as much as possibly, at least until I can pull off Greater Invisibility shenanigans at a higher level. While I'm still leaning towards a Vivisectionist, I'd love to see more info about a bomb wielding Alchemist that could be more balanced. I'd especially love tips on how to create one that could still act as the primary melee combatant without the Vivisectionist archetype.
Bakunin wrote: The 14 in Intelligence is without any Headband of Intellect. I'd probably be adding one or two of my ability score increases to my Intelligence, definitely adding one to Strength if I drop it to 17 to increase my Dexterity.
I'd definitely be planning on trying to get the flank as much as possibly, at least until I can pull off Greater Invisibility shenanigans at a higher level. While I'm still leaning towards a Vivisectionist, I'd love to see more info about a bomb wielding Alchemist that could be more balanced. I'd especially love tips on how to create one that could still act as the primary melee combatant without the Vivisectionist archetype.
I don't know much about bombs so I can't really help you there. But some of the bomb discoveries look rather nice, you could use your bombs for control rather than damage.
If I did drop the Strength down to 17, would you lean more towards adding in a Melee class dip for the better HP's as well as getting the +1 BAB as well as picking up the armor and weapon proficiencies and other class benefits?
Bakunin wrote: If I did drop the Strength down to 17, would you lean more towards adding in a Melee class dip for the better HP's as well as getting the +1 BAB as well as picking up the armor and weapon proficiencies and other class benefits? Sure, as long as you don't mind being 1 lv behind on your alchemist abilities. The better armor helps you survive longer, and the martial weapons are useful when you're not in mutagenic form. I'd go for barbarian, besides proficiencies you get rage (4+con rounds a day) and +10 movement speed (which is equivalent to 2 feats). And if you ever decide to get the gore attack you would just need 1 more lv in barbarian. Maybe go fighter if you plan on using heavy armor or really need that combat feat. But using heavy armor would lower you to 20 ft movement as opposed to the barbarians 40 ft movement. Just make sure to get a breast plate made of mithral.
Some Random Dood wrote: Bakunin wrote: If I did drop the Strength down to 17, would you lean more towards adding in a Melee class dip for the better HP's as well as getting the +1 BAB as well as picking up the armor and weapon proficiencies and other class benefits? Sure, as long as you don't mind being 1 lv behind on your alchemist abilities. The better armor helps you survive longer, and the martial weapons are useful when you're not in mutagenic form. I'd go for barbarian, besides proficiencies you get rage (4+con rounds a day) and +10 movement speed (which is equivalent to 2 feats). And if you ever decide to get the gore attack you would just need 1 more lv in barbarian. Maybe go fighter if you plan on using heavy armor or really need that combat feat. But using heavy armor would lower you to 20 ft movement as opposed to the barbarians 40 ft movement. Just make sure to get a breast plate made of mithral. Cool, thanks. Not sure just yet if I can fit in a second level of Barbarian for the Gore attack. Have to play around with Alchemist/Master Chymist levels and see. One more thing that helps tip it in favor of the Barbarian is the usefulness of the 40' movement in getting to a flanking position. Will definitely have to play around with builds in Hero Lab and see what I can come up with.
You might learn something or find inspiration from this thread. Not exactly what you're looking for, but it's relevant so it might be helpful in some way. I'd advice from doing it that way though, a bit too powerful. :)
If you are set on going Master Chymist I'd only take a few levels so you get more mutagen uses per day, and concentrate on Alchemist levels for caster progression.
Raje wrote: You might learn something or find inspiration from this thread. Not exactly what you're looking for, but it's relevant so it might be helpful in some way. I'd advice from doing it that way though, a bit too powerful. :)
If you are set on going Master Chymist I'd only take a few levels so you get more mutagen uses per day, and concentrate on Alchemist levels for caster progression.
I've definitely got to re-read that thread for all the details of the build, but it was an inspiration for the character along with a few other threads on the subject. What I'm looking at will be similar, but I know I can't duplicate it and still do the things I want to do with Master Chymist by 15th level, which is about the max we would reach in the AP we'll be running through.
As far as Master Chymist levels, it's looking like I'll only be taking 3 or 4 levels of the prestige class, max, as I need actual Alchemist levels for some of the Beastmorph archetype benefits. Still looking at things though, haven't settled into anything 100% yet.
I'd avoid MC entirely. It introduces a really nasty drawback for those additional mutagens you get. ...Is THAT why you're obsessing so much over your will save?
StreamOfTheSky wrote: I'd avoid MC entirely. It introduces a really nasty drawback for those additional mutagens you get. ...Is THAT why you're obsessing so much over your will save? Just experience with a low will save melee character in other campaigns that got hit with a few will targeted spells that made me attack the party. What's the nasty drawback on the MC? I haven't read as much on the prestige class as I have the Alchemist, so I don't want to totally overlook any downsides to the MC.
Another question is if anyone's tried taking a level of Gunslinger before the Alchemist levels. I saw that build mentioned in another thread and was wondering how it plays and how much synergy there is between the two classes.
Bakunin wrote: StreamOfTheSky wrote: I'd avoid MC entirely. It introduces a really nasty drawback for those additional mutagens you get. ...Is THAT why you're obsessing so much over your will save? Just experience with a low will save melee character in other campaigns that got hit with a few will targeted spells that made me attack the party. What's the nasty drawback on the MC? I haven't read as much on the prestige class as I have the Alchemist, so I don't want to totally overlook any downsides to the MC. I believe this is the main drawback for Master Chymist. But I don't really see it being that bad.
Also your mutagenic form gains it's own alignment, name and personality once you take your first lv in Master Chymist.
Streamofthesky - I would be "obsessing" just as much over any character that has a bad will save. An alchemist that had a few rounds to buff can be quite the monster, and you don't want to fall to mind control or it could cause a TPK.
Any ideas on feat progression for the Alchemist? I'm still not sure if I'll go full Alchemist or dip a level or two in Barbarian for armor, weapons, rage, and a gore natural attack. Regardless, right now I'm looking at a Human Ulfen Beastmorph/Vivisectionist with the following stats.
Str 17
Int 14
Wis 12
Dex 14
Con 14
Cha 7
Traits: Freed Slave ( +1 to Will saves), and a campaign trait from Skull & Shackles most likely.
Feats: Toughness and either Iron Will or Extra Rage depending on if I dip Barbarian.
I'd be taking Iron Will or Extra Discovery at 3rd level, but after that I'm not sure what to do feat-wise. I've taken a look at the build linked earlier in the thread, but I'm not sure it fits the character, nor am I sure I'd even be able to do it since it's based on a Changeling with natural attacks without having to use Feral Mutagen.
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