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A point for clarification has recently come up … and I could use some assistance in finding an answer. A Dusty Rose Prism adds a +1 insight bonus to you AC, which should also up your CMD by +1 as well.
Slot it in a Wayfinder, and its resonance power is +2 insight bonus to CMB & CMD. Is that added to the +1 you got from the AC boost? They are both insight bonuses, and bonuses of the same type usually do not stack (not dodge or circumstance). However, the bonuses are affecting different capabilities, i.e. AC and CMB/CMD.
Opinions?
Any assistance would be appreciated.
Couldn't find anything with my search fu, but my technique may be weak.
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I'd say official clarification isn't needed, and I wouldn't expect to see it. The rules are all right there in the book.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to
checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type,
and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not
cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus
granted applies.
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates
how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of
bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t
generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses,
most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the
better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical
Effects).. . . .
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or
penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws,
and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.
More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack
even if they come from different spells (or from effects
other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
A creature can also add any circumstance,
deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred
bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature’s AC also apply to its CMD.
Currently it seems you are receiving two effects;
+1 Insight to AC (which means +1 Insight bonus to CMD as per the general CMD rules);+2 Insight to CMB and CMD.
You are receiving both a +1 and a +2 Insight bonus to CMD. As per the general rules for bonuses, they will not stack. In total, your character would receive +1 Insight to AC, +2 Insight to CMB and +2 Insight to CMD from these effects.
To confirm the opposite interpretation, you'd have to successfully explain that you're receiving a +2 Insight bonus to CMD, and a +1 Insight bonus to AC that is granting you a +1 untyped bonus to CMD. I think that stance would be difficult to defend.
If that interpretation were made, then all bonuses to CMD from AC are effectively untyped and you can combine them with the same origin of bonuses to CMD. You could combine +X Deflection bonuses to AC with +X Deflection bonuses to CMD; +X Insight bonuses to AC with Insight bonuses to CMD; and Sacred, and Profane, and so on. Nearly every bonus you could get your hands on is doubled in capacity (besides Dodge, which stacks anyway).
There's more support for a strict interpretation, it doesn't require mental gymnastics to justify and preserves the consistency and balance of the system. If being explicitly told "bonuses of the same type don't stack" five times isn't convincing enough, hopefully that is.
they are both the same category of bonus. therefore they do not stack. just like casting bull strength on something with transformation cast on it does nothing, since transformation gives an enhancement bonus to all 3 physical stats, the enhancement bonus from bull strength wouldn't do anything.
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they are both the same category of bonus. therefore they do not stack. just like casting bull strength on something with transformation cast on it does nothing, since transformation gives an enhancement bonus to all 3 physical stats, the enhancement bonus from bull strength wouldn't do anything.
No, you are wrong.
These are untyped bonuses, from different sources. Everything in the rules on stacking bonuses disagrees with you.
They stack.
they are both the same category of bonus. therefore they do not stack. just like casting bull strength on something with transformation cast on it does nothing, since transformation gives an enhancement bonus to all 3 physical stats, the enhancement bonus from bull strength wouldn't do anything.No, you are wrong.
These are untyped bonuses, from different sources. Everything in the rules on stacking bonuses disagrees with you.
They stack.
ummm, i thought the OP said they were both insight bonuses? am i missing something?
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I can't argue against those that are saying they don't stack. If you sit down and try to add up all of your bonuses to CMD, when you get to the +1 insight bonus to AC, it's a huge leap to turn that into an untyped bonus to CMD.
However, I also can't see how this was intended. Why would they give you a +2 insight bonus to CMD from resonance when they really only intended for you to benefit from an additional +1?
My opinion:
RAW - Don't stack
RAI - Stack
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ummm, i thought the OP said they were both insight bonuses? am i missing something?they are both the same category of bonus. therefore they do not stack. just like casting bull strength on something with transformation cast on it does nothing, since transformation gives an enhancement bonus to all 3 physical stats, the enhancement bonus from bull strength wouldn't do anything.No, you are wrong.
These are untyped bonuses, from different sources. Everything in the rules on stacking bonuses disagrees with you.
They stack.
I totally replied to the wrong post, on the wrong thread.
My bad.
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I can't argue against those that are saying they don't stack. If you sit down and try to add up all of your bonuses to CMD, when you get to the +1 insight bonus to AC, it's a huge leap to turn that into an untyped bonus to CMD.
However, I also can't see how this was intended. Why would they give you a +2 insight bonus to CMD from resonance when they really only intended for you to benefit from an additional +1?
My opinion:
RAW - Don't stack
RAI - Stack
I don't think the RAI is that obvious. Maybe they wanted you to get an additional +1 on top of what you already had, but they wanted to keep it an insight bonus. We really don't know.
Anyway, I agree that the RAW is clear, so that's what I'll stick to when I get around to getting this with one of my PCs. I was already planning to get this stone and Wayfinder for my Lore Warden character when he gets to the point where he can afford it, but I want it for the CMB boost more than the defense.
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I just tried added it up in HeroLab... and found out I haven't paid for access to whichever book has all the ioun stone/wayfinder synergies in it (Seekers of Secrets I think). :(
I created a custom item to add an individual Insight bonus to CMD & CMB, and it did not stack with the bonus provided from the Ioun Stone...
Upon checking the ioun stone itself, it's not providing a separate bonus to CMD, so it's figuring in that through some other mechanic which seems to retain the bonuses insight type.
Granted, HeroLab hardly a test for rules validity.
They don't stack.
I would say they do stack. If you had an +2 enhancement bonus to your dex, giving you +1 AC, and an enhancement bonus to AC, they would stack.
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I would say they do stack. If you had an +2 enhancement bonus to your dex, giving you +1 AC, and an enhancement bonus to AC, they would stack.
The enhancement bonus to your dex does not add an enhancement bonus to AC. However, your increased dex does add a higher dex bonus to your AC. Different types.
It does seem the straightforward way of reading the rules for determining CMD is that if you have an insight bonus to AC, then you also have an insight bonus to CMD (as opposed to an AC bonus to CMD). Depending how you read the rule, it's possible to interpret it differently, but after reviewing it I'm certain its RAI to interpret it an insight bonus to AC as an insight bonus to CMD.
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Sigh. I don't like the level of clarity in that wording.
This is for the other resonant method, but I still think that mentioning this is relevant:
"1 If the stone's normal power gives the same kind of bonus, these effects stack. For example, a deep red sphere (+2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity) that has the resonant power of “+2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity” gives a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity."That said, it seems like they didn't realize (or possibly intend?) +1 AC would give +1 to CMD.
That's a good catch. I personally think they're probably still not intended to stack, but there's evidence to go either way, as the GM.
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This is for the other resonant method, but I still think that mentioning this is relevant:
"1 If the stone's normal power gives the same kind of bonus, these effects stack. For example, a deep red sphere (+2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity) that has the resonant power of “+2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity” gives a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity."That said, it seems like they didn't realize (or possibly intend?) +1 AC would give +1 to CMD.
Note that only certain resonances in Method 2 are marked for this footnote, and that the "+2 insight bonus on CMB and to CMD." result 16 does NOT have the asterick shown for the stacking to work.
Then again, it looks like the table needs errata, anyhow. Result 23 is something that no longer works that way in Pathfinder: "Miss chance against incorporeal creatures decreases to 25%." Isn't that just a flat 50% damage reduction, now?