Alchemist dual-wielding 2-handers

[Malag]

I am a bit in dillema here and I appreciatte all help I can get in ruling this issue.
First some notes:
This question is not for me but for 1 player in our PFS community.
This is for PFS, so it has to be strictly legal and RAW, meaning, no house rules or such.
There is additional information on this topic and also some statements which both me and player pulled out from:Alchemist "Vestigial Arm" discovery question
Consider that player has enough attributes in every area for feat prerequistes.

Question:
Player wants his alchemist with 4 arms to dual-wield 2x 2-handed weapons. How would this be treated? Penaltys? Str bonus 1.5x , 1x, 0.5x? Would it be possible even? If it's not possible what would be best similar way to achieve it, Titan Mauler Barbarian maybe?
Some of my comments on it are that he can't take Two-Weapon Fighting with multilimbs, and Multiweapon Fighting which is for more limbs is Monster feat. So he seems to be stuck with -6 primary hand, -10 offhand penaltys.
If he could take Multiweapon Fighting , it's written in it that 1 weapon is in primary hand, not hands, so even then I am not sure if it would reduce penaltys.

I know this issue is a bit grey area and double chesse but it's not really for me, I am just trying to figure it out.

[Richard Leonhart]

good question, here are the rules that apply.
Specific goes over general, but they both are just at the same spot, and just as specific.
One thing seems clear, the main hand does 1.5 times strength as damage.

Also why can't he take two-weapon fighting?
For PFS you really need to wait for a FAQ entry I guess, I'll flag it as such.

[Malag]

@Richard Leonhart
Thanks on that link, that solves few questions regarding Str bonus. Most likely 1.5 on main, 0.5 on offhand.

Reason why I believe he cant take Two Weapon Fighting is that it's written in the feat that it includes creatures using weapons with primary hand and secondary hand, not primary hands and secondary hands. Even the fluff text implies so. Usually for fighting with more limbs Multiweapon Fighting is used, but it's specified as Monster feat.

[Roaming Shadow]

Malag wrote:

...not primary hands and secondary hands.

There is no such thing as "primary hands". A creature only ever has one primary hand and the rest are offhand (except for the monk in which no attack is considered "off hand"). So I would read it that you have a two hander in your primary and a two hander in your secondary, and each weapon is also being held by a secondary in order to wield it.

Here's the issue I have with it though; it you're properly wielding a two handed weapon, you're using a right and left hand. Unless you only use horizontal slashes, the pair would get in the way of each other. As it is, it would make it a little difficult to keep the weapons in a proper ready position. And I don't think you can properly wield a weapon using two left or two right hands, as neither the arms nor shoulders are the correct configuration for wielding the weapon as designed.

Admittedly, the above paragraph may not be supported by RAW, But that's my views. RAW actually seems to mandate it be Multi-Weapon fighting:

Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting
feat for creatures with more than two arms.

It seems that, by RAW, if you use more than two arms when attacking with weapons, it defaults to MWF. That's the way I interpret the rules I'm reading. I have no idea what the penalties would be for multiple two handed weapons though, as I believe the designers assumed people would think dual wielding two handed weapons would be impossible and so did not explicitly state it.

[Malag]

So would the Special note in MWF, which is Monster feat, apply to players? If it would, lot of discussion could be avoided about dual wielding them.

I'll await for more replies on this.

[Roaming Shadow]

Malag wrote:

So would the Special note in MWF, which is Monster feat, apply to players? If it would, lot of discussion could be avoided about dual wielding them.

I'll await for more replies on this.

From the Bestiary 1:

"Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters,
although some player characters might qualify for them"

Technically, though the feats in the bestiary were designed with monsters and creatures in mind, all that's important is the prerequisites. The vast majority of base races don't meet any of the prerequisites, but that's not always the case. For example the prerequisites for Multiweapon Fighting are:

Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.

If you meet those prerequisites, you can take the feat. None of the feats require one to be a certain creature or monstrous.

[Malag]

Seems valid enough that he can take Multiweapon Fighting.

So we are looking at -4/-4 penalty's only on both primary and secondary "hands"? With 1.5 Str bonus on main 2-handed weapon and 0.5 Str bonus on second 2-handed weapon?

I keep getting feeling that something is missing.

[Malag]

bump

[Selgard]

Keep in mind that PFS players can't take feats from the Bestiary. Like Multiweapon fighting. They'd have to receive it as part of a class, PRC, Archtype or PFS legal magical item.

(unless they changed that.. which is possible.)

-S

[Malag]

It doesn't say anything about Multiweapon Fighting which is from CRB, and CRB is core, of being illegal to use.

Likewise, nothing says in additional resources, FAQ, or anywhere else about it. At least, I cant find it.

[Malag]

My bad, found it. It's not legal to use yeah.

So how would be best way to go with this? Could the Titan Mauler wield 2x 2-handers? Entire archetype is broken still, but it would allow him that?

[Dolanar]

Actually if I recall a player with Two-Weapon Fighting that has more than 2 hands automatically gains Multi-Weapon Fighting upon obtaining more than 2 arms so its not about taking a feat, its about automatically getting it once he gets his first Vestigial Limb, however you take large penalties when your offhand weapon is not light so keep that in mind.

[Michael Foster 989]

The penalties on the titan mauler make it ineffective to dual wield 2 handed weapons and two weapon fight (you end up at -6 to both attacks)

[Quandary]

there's nothing stopping you from using 2WF even though you have many hands,
but you just are only going to get one bonus off-hand attack from it, regardless of how many limbs you have,
you need to use MWF to get multiple off-hand attacks... (and MWF is barred in PFS)

off-hand attacks are defined to apply 'only half STR bonus' to dmg, no matter what, so that is clear.
per RAW you could claim that the 'main hand' weapon should qualify for 2 handed 1.5 STR bonus,
but that is no different than the main hand end of a double weapon...
per RAW, 1.5 STR should apply, but James Jacobs has said that isn't the intent,
i.e. the RAW-unstated paradigm is that 2WF forces main-hand to be treated as a 1-hand-wielded weapon for ALL purposes besides whether or not you can wield the weapon, e.g. 2handed weapons.

this issue has been raised several times, since long ago, but Paizo has never deigned to issue Errata that actually makes clear how the main hand works re: STR damage bonus.

...basically you will be benefitting from big weapon dice if you use big 2handed weapons, although if you don't use a light weapon in the 'offhand' you will be eating big penalties (2weapon fighter alleviates that).

[Selgard]

The feat does say it automatically converts- unfortunately it automatically converts into a feat that isn't legal for PFS.

The feats in the bestiary can pretty much say whatever they want to say- until the book is legal for players to use in PFS they just aren't legal in PFS.

-S

[Michael Foster 989]

Actually the wording on the allowability of beastiary feats in PFS says you do not have access to them "unless they are granted by another legal source" not that they are forbidden completely, The two weapon fighting feat + 3 or more hands is another legal source, so multiweapon fighting is legal for PFS but only under special cases

[BigNorseWolf]

Michael Foster wrote:

he two weapon fighting feat + 3 or more hands is another legal source, so multiweapon fighting is legal for PFS but only under special cases

Nope, he's met the PREREQUISITES from another legal source, but he hasn't gotten multiweapon fighting made available from a legal source: that would take an archetype, prestige class, or something.

[Malag]

CRB is core. And in Core rulebook is written under Special rule that it grants MWF. This is core.

But all Beastiary feats are banned in PFS.

It seems like endless loop question to me. Maybe I should ask it in PFS section.

[Phasics]

I figured this might be worth mentioning

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

The intent is that you have an extra arm for holding stuff, not to turn you into a double-greatsword-wielding maniac.

The vestigial limb is also not giving you any extra actions. For example, a normal character can use twf to attack with a manufactured weapon in one hand and one unarmed strike, whether that's a punch, kick, or headbutt. He doesn't get multiple extra unarmed strikes per round just because he has an arm, two legs, and a head free. Therefore, you don't get any extra attacks just because you now have a vestigial arm, or two vestigial arms. You're still limited by the normal limitations of the attack sequence.

And no, having the wings discovery doesn't mean you automatically get an extra wing attack. Most creatures that naturally have wings don't get wing attacks; the rules for wing attacks in the Bestiary are mainly there so you know if wings are primary or secondary, and how much damage they should do if you're building your own monster. If, for example, your alchemist wanted to attack with a wing *instead* of an unarmed strike, you'd know how it would function (secondary, bludgeoning, probably 1d4 for a Medium creature). But the wing attack wouldn't be in *addition* to the alchemist's normal attack routine, it would take the place of one of the alchemist's other attacks that round.

Source Post

[Malag]

I am aware of that Phasics, I am just trying to figure out how it would work now, not when errata comes on it. Besides, dual wielding doesn't give you extra attacks.

[Phasics]

Malag wrote:

I am aware of that Phasics, I am just trying to figure out how it would work now, not when errata comes on it. Besides, dual wielding doesn't give you extra attacks.

not to turn you into a double-greatsword-wielding maniac :P

[BigNorseWolf]

Malag wrote:

CRB is core. And in Core rulebook is written under Special rule that it grants MWF

Quote the section of the core rule book you're refering to please. You need to start in a legal source and get specifically to the feat multiweapon fighting, not merely start in a core rulebook and get the prerequisites for multi weapon fighting.

[Malag]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Malag wrote:

CRB is core. And in Core rulebook is written under Special rule that it grants MWF

Quote the section of the core rule book you're refering to please. You need to start in a legal source and get specifically to the feat multiweapon fighting, not merely start in a core rulebook and get the prerequisites for multi weapon fighting.

I don't have anything to quote then. Both TWF and MWF seemed connected to me by Special rule bellow MWF. You wrote your comment sooner then mine, otherwise I would have deleted it.

@Phasics Trust me, I get it. I am not really interested in this sort of char building, just trying to get everybody happy.

[Fallax]

That's the problem with not specified rules. What about wielding a 2hander, light weapon and a shield?

[Dolanar]

I believe the rules on Vestigial Arms prevents it from "Wielding" something in the V.Arm only "holding" is allowed, so you could feasibly hold the shield, but not wield it.

[Fallax]

Why not? It's like you are being unable to use your perfectly fine and healthy arm for anything else but holding stuff. Even the rules on PFSRD say so:

"Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). "

I believe the TWF is compatibile with that kind of a char because it is called "Two weapon fighting" and he is using two weapons.

@Phasics, I want to make that maniac, and Malag is just being nice trying to please both me and rules.

[cartmanbeck]

Dolanar wrote:

I believe the rules on Vestigial Arms prevents it from "Wielding" something in the V.Arm only "holding" is allowed, so you could feasibly hold the shield, but not wield it.

I disagree, it specifically calls out bombs as something to use a vestigial arm for, which are wielded just as any other ranged weapon. There's no reason you can't wield a weapon with a vest. arm, as long as you're not gaining an extra attack with it. That's why the dual-two-handers theoretically works within the rules. It may not be practical, because of the huge penalties, but it works.

What you CAN do, and works very well, instead, is a two-hander in one set of arms and a shield in the other, leaving the last arm open for potion/extract quaffing. Let me compare dual-two-handers to a two-hander plus shield build real quick (assuming Two-Weapon Fighting, of course):

Two two-handed weapons:
Main hand attack bonus: -4. Off-hand attack bonus: -4. Main hand damage: x1.5 Str. Off-hand damage: x1/2 Str

Two-hander plus shield:
Main hand attack bonus: -2. Off-hand attack bonus: -2. Main hand damage: x1.5 Str. Off-hand damage: x1/2 Str BUT can be increased to x1 Str with shield bash feats.

My current character in one of our games is an Alchemist/Fighter who did the two-handeer plus shield approach, and the Fighter levels are in the Two-Handed Fighter archetype which raises the Str bonus to the main hand to 2x. He's pretty beastly.

[Phasics]

Fallax wrote:

@Phasics, I want to make that maniac, and Malag is just being nice trying to please both me and rules.

sure mate, you own game your own rules, but just consider the people who actually wrote these rules didn't want such a thing to happen.