Hi community!
I have a PC in my campaign who is gloriously invulnerable to physical attacks (huge Dex/Dodge based AC paired with uncanny dodge). Because he's so specialized, he has a major weakness - abysmally low Will Save for an 8th level character.
Obviously I can just throw clerics, wizards, and adepts at him all day, but I'm looking for more monsters to shake things up.
What are some great monsters with attacks that require a will save? Even lower level creatures are viable, as his will save is only +4.
Thanks!
Just look for things that use illusions or cast charms and compulsions.
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Hi community!
I have a PC in my campaign who is gloriously invulnerable to physical attacks (huge Dex/Dodge based AC paired with uncanny dodge). Because he's so specialized, he has a major weakness - abysmally low Will Save for an 8th level character.
Obviously I can just throw clerics, wizards, and adepts at him all day, but I'm looking for more monsters to shake things up.
What are some great monsters with attacks that require a will save? Even lower level creatures are viable, as his will save is only +4.
Thanks!
He has a bigger weakness then that. If his AC is all based around Dex and Dodge anytime he's in darkness (effectively blind) he loses ALL of that.
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks.
If you want to make him sweat use Dark Stalkers against him. As soon as he's completely blinded in their Deeper Darkness the sneak attacks kick in and damage starts flying. (Uncanny Dodge & Improved Uncanny Dodge won't help against these attacks)
Shouldn't kill him but should really make him panic for awhile.
I just ran a party of 4 8th level characters and threw them up against a couple of these. DC 17 will save or be stunned... that's fun :)
Some monsters that work well against him:
Sphinx, Androsphinx
Bogeyman
Nephilim
Moon-Beast
Barbed Devil
Succubi are classic, but maybe overkill. Other charm-type monsters (nymphs, dryads, etc.) also work.
Anything with a fear attack (krenshars, devils, some undead).
Regular fighters can try to intimidate him.
Here are some creatures that can fit into CR-appropriate encounters for an average group of 8th-level character:
CR 10 - bogeyman, horned demon, or rakshasa
CR 9 - night hag, vampire, or zelekhut inevitable
CR 8 - animate dream, erinyes, or intellect devourer
CR 7 - aboleth, manananggal, or shadow demon
Round 1 - The horned demon uses enslave soul on the low Will save character as a swift action (DC 18, 65% chance of success), then hits the entire group with greater command to halt. If the enslave worked, the low Will save character is effectively removed from combat for 12 rounds unless he manages to roll a natural 20 before the spell expires. Meanwhile, the vermleks shuffle forward in their fleshy suits, tying up the battlefield and spamming mass inflict light wounds. This should probably soften the party up some... if the low Will save character got enslaved, he's looking at needing 18+ rolls to avoid taking the full 4d8+12 negative energy.
At this point, the low Will save and probably 1-2 more party members are useless for a round. The party could either deal with the "strobe light of doom" mooks or try to circumvent then to take out the big nasty. The horned demon will react accordingly and is no chump... he's physically powerful, is probably air walking and hasted at the start of combat, can teleport at will and dominate any melee types who aren't locked down by the halting command. The mooks, for their part, can saturate the party with negative energy for three rounds if they are not immediately dealt with. Factor in some abyssal terrain and you've got a challenging encounter.
For added fun, if there was any memorable slaver NPC that the PCs killed earlier in their careers have the horned demon be the slaver's ambitious, rapidly promoted soul. It'd be somewhat familiar with the PCs abilities and have a chip on its demonic shoulder.
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Hi community!
I have a PC in my campaign who is gloriously invulnerable to physical attacks (huge Dex/Dodge based AC paired with uncanny dodge). Because he's so specialized, he has a major weakness - abysmally low Will Save for an 8th level character.
Obviously I can just throw clerics, wizards, and adepts at him all day, but I'm looking for more monsters to shake things up.
What are some great monsters with attacks that require a will save? Even lower level creatures are viable, as his will save is only +4.
Thanks!
He has a bigger weakness then that. If his AC is all based around Dex and Dodge anytime he's in darkness (effectively blind) he loses ALL of that.
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks.If you want to make him sweat use Dark Stalkers against him. As soon as he's completely blinded in their Deeper Darkness the sneak attacks kick in and damage starts flying. (Uncanny Dodge & Improved Uncanny Dodge won't help against these attacks)
Shouldn't kill him but should really make him panic for awhile.
No go. The OP stated the dude has uncanny dodge, which means they're not flat-footed unless immobilized in some fashion or someone uses feint.
In that light, however, having an enemy that uses Feint might be good. A two-weapon rogue with the improved feint, greater feint and two-weapon feint feats would be able to ditch his first attack to feint, and then sneak attack away without dealing with most of their AC.
But the OP was asking for monsters, so that's not much help. I'd look at Fae, personally.
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Hi community!
I have a PC in my campaign who is gloriously invulnerable to physical attacks (huge Dex/Dodge based AC paired with uncanny dodge). Because he's so specialized, he has a major weakness - abysmally low Will Save for an 8th level character.
Obviously I can just throw clerics, wizards, and adepts at him all day, but I'm looking for more monsters to shake things up.
What are some great monsters with attacks that require a will save? Even lower level creatures are viable, as his will save is only +4.
Thanks!
He has a bigger weakness then that. If his AC is all based around Dex and Dodge anytime he's in darkness (effectively blind) he loses ALL of that.
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks.If you want to make him sweat use Dark Stalkers against him. As soon as he's completely blinded in their Deeper Darkness the sneak attacks kick in and damage starts flying. (Uncanny Dodge & Improved Uncanny Dodge won't help against these attacks)
Shouldn't kill him but should really make him panic for awhile.No go. The OP stated the dude has uncanny dodge, which means they're not flat-footed unless immobilized in some fashion or someone uses feint.
In that light, however, having an enemy that uses Feint might be good. A two-weapon rogue with the improved feint, greater feint and two-weapon feint feats would be able to ditch his first attack to feint, and then sneak attack away without dealing with most of their AC.
But the OP was asking for monsters, so that's not much help. I'd look at Fae, personally.
Incorrect, read it again. Uncanny Dodge only prevents you from being flat footed or if your opponent is invisible. It does NOT help you if you are denied your Dex bonus from being unable to see.
Major difference there.And I did give him creatures to use, Dark Stalkers with their at will deeper darkness.
Simple, easy and highly effective without needing to use a creature that will maul the rest of the party at the same time.
edit: Also Improved uncanny Dodge only prevents them from being SA from Rogues. Dark Stalkers aren't Rogues so that doesn't help in this situation either.
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Incorrect, read it again. Uncanny Dodge only prevents you from being flat footed or if...Hi community!
I have a PC in my campaign who is gloriously invulnerable to physical attacks (huge Dex/Dodge based AC paired with uncanny dodge). Because he's so specialized, he has a major weakness - abysmally low Will Save for an 8th level character.
Obviously I can just throw clerics, wizards, and adepts at him all day, but I'm looking for more monsters to shake things up.
What are some great monsters with attacks that require a will save? Even lower level creatures are viable, as his will save is only +4.
Thanks!
He has a bigger weakness then that. If his AC is all based around Dex and Dodge anytime he's in darkness (effectively blind) he loses ALL of that.
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks.If you want to make him sweat use Dark Stalkers against him. As soon as he's completely blinded in their Deeper Darkness the sneak attacks kick in and damage starts flying. (Uncanny Dodge & Improved Uncanny Dodge won't help against these attacks)
Shouldn't kill him but should really make him panic for awhile.No go. The OP stated the dude has uncanny dodge, which means they're not flat-footed unless immobilized in some fashion or someone uses feint.
In that light, however, having an enemy that uses Feint might be good. A two-weapon rogue with the improved feint, greater feint and two-weapon feint feats would be able to ditch his first attack to feint, and then sneak attack away without dealing with most of their AC.
But the OP was asking for monsters, so that's not much help. I'd look at Fae, personally.
This depends on your interpretation of flat-footed versus denied dexterity bonus.
She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible.
The first and second clauses are separate. She cannot be caught flat-footed. I generally view flat-footed as a more severe version of the "denied dexterity bonus" condition, as do many people. The distinction between the two is solely that "denied dexterity bonus" is not listed under conditions and that it can be applied to particular attacks rather than a character as a whole.
In this light, I assume that anything that resist flat-footed resists denied dexterity to the same extent. If this were not the case, the following lines from the same text would not be necessary:
She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
As both conditions its clarifying would normally deny your dexterity bonus rather than make you flat-footed, it must be then interpreted that you normally keep your dexterity bonus in cases that would deny it to you and the ability is telling you "But not in these two cases." This is supported by the clarification that you do, in fact, get to keep your dexterity to AC against an invisible foe. (On a related note: Exactly what, would you posit, is the difference between being attacked by an invisible foe and being attacked by any foe while blind? There must be one for the argument that being blind bypasses uncanny dodge to hold any water.)
TL;DR - Uncanny dodge says "NEVER FLATFOOTED" in big, bold letters. Denied dexterity bonus to AC is a less severe version of that condition. Therefor, unless otherwise stated, someone with uncanny dodge cannot lose their dexterity bonus to AC unless immobilized or the victim of a feint maneuver. Arguments that blindness bypasses uncanny dodge are even more suspect, as it is hard to argue that being attacked by an invisible foe is somehow fundamentally different from being attacked by any foe while blind.
This is one of those situations where you have to make a GM ruling on RAW vs possible RAI. First things first. Flat-footed is a more specific subset of being denied your Dex, not a more severe form.
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
There are a couple things here. Firstly, it specifically denies you your Dex bonus, instead of saying "you are always considered flatfooted." Secondly, attackers "always have total concealment." They are not specifically declared as invisible. You can argue that the intent is the same, but as written, it is different.
Basically, it's up the the GM.
Incorrect, read it again. Uncanny Dodge only prevents you from being flat footed or if your opponent is invisible. It does NOT help you if you are denied your Dex bonus from being unable to see.
Major difference there.
No, not really. If you can't see your attacker, they're effectively invisible to you.
No, not really. If you can't see your attacker, they're effectively invisible to you.Incorrect, read it again. Uncanny Dodge only prevents you from being flat footed or if your opponent is invisible. It does NOT help you if you are denied your Dex bonus from being unable to see.
Major difference there.
Not as RAW in the Blindness condition description.
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...Incorrect, read it again. Uncanny Dodge only prevents you fromHi community!
I have a PC in my campaign who is gloriously invulnerable to physical attacks (huge Dex/Dodge based AC paired with uncanny dodge). Because he's so specialized, he has a major weakness - abysmally low Will Save for an 8th level character.
Obviously I can just throw clerics, wizards, and adepts at him all day, but I'm looking for more monsters to shake things up.
What are some great monsters with attacks that require a will save? Even lower level creatures are viable, as his will save is only +4.
Thanks!
He has a bigger weakness then that. If his AC is all based around Dex and Dodge anytime he's in darkness (effectively blind) he loses ALL of that.
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks.If you want to make him sweat use Dark Stalkers against him. As soon as he's completely blinded in their Deeper Darkness the sneak attacks kick in and damage starts flying. (Uncanny Dodge & Improved Uncanny Dodge won't help against these attacks)
Shouldn't kill him but should really make him panic for awhile.No go. The OP stated the dude has uncanny dodge, which means they're not flat-footed unless immobilized in some fashion or someone uses feint.
In that light, however, having an enemy that uses Feint might be good. A two-weapon rogue with the improved feint, greater feint and two-weapon feint feats would be able to ditch his first attack to feint, and then sneak attack away without dealing with most of their AC.
But the OP was asking for monsters, so that's not much help. I'd look at Fae, personally.
First, Flat-footed is a specific condition that has it's own set of rules.
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.
Characters with Uncanny Dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat.
and only really pertains to targets that have not acted during combat or are unable to react normally.
Being denied your dex bonus is a different occurrence and per the entry for Uncanny Dodge you only keep your Dex bonus if the attacker is invisible. Other conditions that deny you your Dex bonus still works with the immobilized being one that is specifically called out.
Now remember there is no Condition called "denied Dex Bonus" so it is not a lesser state then the "Flat Footed" condition, they are to totally separate effects. The fact that it isn't called out as a lesser condition while every other condition that has lesser states ARE called out. (Shaken>Frightened>panicked, Grappled>Pinned, Fatigued>exhausted, etc)
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(Lots of stuff...)
Please re-read my first sentence: This depends on your interpretation of flat-footed versus denied dexterity bonus.
I understand that if you read RAW in the strictest fashion they are purely different. However, doing so leads to a completely non-sensible game in the long run so I favor a more RAI interpretation wherever RAW seems to get weird.
IMO, having "denied dexterity" be completely unrelated to "flat-footed" is one of those weirdnesses that simply doesn't make sense without treated "denied dexterity" as a less severe form of "flat-footed".
In either case, I would find it very hard to argue against a player that says "Wait, so I can dodge the guy fine if he's invisible, but not if he's *effectively* invisible? What the hell?" Note that blindness would still impose an extra -2 to AC, so it's not like they would get away without penalty.
Anyway, this is a major derailment of the thread. If you wish to continue the conversation (which will inevitably lead to an RAI versus RAW argument), please make another thread.
Attempring to get back on topic...
I'd second succubi. At CR7, you can throw a couple of them at an APL 8 party (three of them being a CR10 encounter), and the save DCs of their charm and domination abilities are nothing to sneeze at.
For maximum enjoyment, give them some class levels. Due to the stat adjustment (you can put +4 on Cha, if you want), the save DCs of a Level 2 Succubus anything (usually CR8) can go up to 25. Good luck making these saves.
The shadow demons are also nasty at CR 7. 3x shadow demons for CR 10 doing multiple magic jars on a party will be challenging.
StabityDoom,
I dont have a dog in this race, but one big difference between fighting someone who is invisible, and effectively so due to darkness, is that you dont know where an invisible foe is, sure. But in darkness, you also dont know where *you* are, or where there might be a bucket or a table, or if the ground is sloping, etc. You severely lose body awareness.
They are psychologically and physiologically and physically different, and vastly so.
Tho as a player, I wouldnt argue against either interpretation.
To be on topic, what about a cursed item that makes him willingly take a hit from a foe once per day if he fails a will save?
Not as RAW in the Blindness condition description.No, not really. If you can't see your attacker, they're effectively invisible to you.Incorrect, read it again. Uncanny Dodge only prevents you from being flat footed or if your opponent is invisible. It does NOT help you if you are denied your Dex bonus from being unable to see.
Major difference there.
Lets say a rogue with uncanny dodge became blind. Lets also say she was struck by a creature. For the blinded condition to remove the Dex bonus to AC of the rogue, then the rogue must not be able to see. Therefore, the creature is invisible to the rogue. If the creature is not invisible to the rogue, then the rogue can see the creature. This can't be the case since the rogue cannot see. Therefore, because the creature is invisible to the rogue, the rogue can apply Uncanny Dodge versus the creature.
Anyway, this is a major derailment of the thread. If you wish to continue the conversation (which will inevitably lead to an RAI versus RAW argument), please make another thread.
Lets say a rogue with uncanny dodge became blind. Lets also say she was struck by a creature. For the blinded condition to remove the Dex bonus to AC of the rogue, then the rogue must not be able to see. Therefore, the creature is invisible to the rogue. If the creature is not invisible to the rogue, then the rogue can see the creature. This can't be the case since the rogue cannot see. Therefore, because the creature is invisible to the rogue, the rogue can apply Uncanny Dodge versus the creature.Not as RAW in the Blindness condition description.No, not really. If you can't see your attacker, they're effectively invisible to you.Incorrect, read it again. Uncanny Dodge only prevents you from being flat footed or if your opponent is invisible. It does NOT help you if you are denied your Dex bonus from being unable to see.
Major difference there.
I'd be happy to continue debating this, but not in this thread. Feel free to make another so we don't continue to derail this one, or I will if you're interested.
EDIT: To contribute to the thread, I'd suggest an enemy that a GM used on my actual party with a low Will save blender fighter: A ghost with Possession.