I'm adding orcs as a core race in my setting, and I noticed that they don't have intimidating, but half orcs do. They both have ferocity, though the half-orcs have a weaker version, yet only half orcs have intimidating.
This seems off to me, so I'm throwing intimidating into the orc. But, then I was thinking it doesn't make sense for both a half orc and an full orc to be equally intimidating when an orc has a couple dozen pounds and a few inches on a half-breed.
So I'm thinking of a few things:
Allow an orc to use str over cha for intimidate checks, along with the +2.
Str intimidates without the +2.
Increase to a +4.
Some bonus specifically to intimidating enemies in combat.
Any other ideas?
Use Str for intimidating is best choice. bigger/stronger orcs are more intimidating that way...
No use for Chr at all.
I would just give them the +2. Otherwise orcs are then more intinidating than ogres.
Even with a +2, aren't they still more intimidating than ogres? I see no intimidate bonus for ogres in the PFSRD.
Edit:
Nevermind, the size bonus.
Though, hmm. Maybe I could give Orcs something where they count as large for the purpose of some skills.
Not something like a Half-Giant's "powerful build", but a lesser form.
|
Maybe orcs just don't have the social adeptness to use their scariness to get what they want as well as half-orcs do. Intimidation isn't just your ability to scare people, but specifically your ability to scare them into doing what you want.
I agree with this.
Different people see the Intimidate skill differently - apparently including the designers, since it is based on Charisma yet being big gives you a bonus.
In the D&D / Pathfinder world, I don't think there is anything especially intimidating about orcs. There are books and books of worse monsters, the vast majority of which don't get a bonus on intimidate.
The problem is, I find the stock orcs to be a little heavy on the penalties and light on the bonuses. They get +4 -6, they're light sensitive, and they have a racial that requires them be close to death. Which is a fantastic racial, don't get me wrong, but it is the kind of racial that is only effective in one specific situation.
I don't think it would unbalance orcs to give them one more beneficial racial.
Give them Intimidating Prowess as a static bonus feat, alternatively give them the a conditional +4 to intimidate when using the skill to demoralize opponents
I'll agree with Benly on this, but let me add that Strength is a quality, not a skill like Intimidation. Intimidation should remain a Cha skill.
I don't see any difference between Orcs and Half-Orcs in terms of being intimidating, either. An Orc might be "more orky" in that sense, but it doesn't mean they're necessarily less scary-looking.
The way I see it, an Orc is likely more concerned about their selfish desires and immediate gratification (think of the orcs in LOTR fighting one another over the Hobbit's stuff). They snarl and growl at each other, but unless an Orc has "graduated" to warrior status (give them that +1 warrior level) they simply don't know how to stand there and bare their tusks and bang on their shields and BE Intimidating deliberately.
BTW, I love the idea of Intimidating PC's. Nothing wrong with making them shake in their boots.
After looking through the ARG, I notice orcs and half-orcs are RP8 classes, where many core classes are RP 10. I think I may play around with giving each of them another 2 RP.
I don't see any difference between Orcs and Half-Orcs in terms of being intimidating, either. An Orc might be "more orky" in that sense, but it doesn't mean they're necessarily less scary-looking.The thing is, I don't think a half-orc's Intimidating just means "how scary she looks". The idea is that half-orcs are people who are outcast from human society but still have to live in it, and so they've learned the best way to use the assets they do have (their scariness) to get what they want/need. If you look at half-orc alternate racial traits, the ones that replace Intimidating all reflect having found some other basic survival methodology.
Intimidate isn't inherently about a show of force, but about manipulating people into wanting to avoid a show of force and thus doing what you want - being actually stronger and thus rationally scarier doesn't make you necessarily better at Intimidate. You can scare people and bully them around without Intimidate; if you chop someone in half and say "someone bring me dinner or I'll do this guy next", it's not Intimidate, it's people responding rationally to threats. That sort of blatant show of force has the same relationship to Intimidate that "I'll give you 500 GP to let us through" has to Diplomacy.
You and I are in agreement.
Their scariness comes from racism, not boogieman powers. +2 to Intimidate is plenty.
+4 to intimidate vs. opposite sex.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, I've decided to give Orcs something different, as I have been playing around with the ARG and trying to bring Orcs and Half-Orcs up to 10RP, as right now they're 8RP which is two less than everyone else.
So for Orcs, if I take their ability layout (paragon, +4 to one physical, -2 to all mental, 1 RP) and switch it for Advanced (+4 for one physical, -2 for 1 mental, 4 RP) that puts us at 11 RP, which is actually the same as Dwarves.
So now you have a race with +4 str, -2 cha (or int or wis) with ferocity and light sensitivity.
Meaty changes!
I actually really like the idea of these changes. I've never liked the idea of orcs being nothing but dumb brutes. I've always preferred to imagine them as masters of war. Not necessarily book smart, but tactical geniuses with an almost instinctive grasp of combat.
Hence "giving them back" 2 points in Int and Wis makes them on par with more races for intellect, while the hit to Cha still makes them brutish and hard to like.
Also opens them up for a lot more class options without handicapping yourself.
Lol, could give them a slight boost when working with other orks. Make them teamworking professionals. Tactical know-how or whatever, they always have a decent plan.
But I think you are mixing hobgoblins with orcs.
I think if I gave them that on top of these changes, it would break them.
Right now I've only pushed them into RP11, which puts them on par with Dwarves.
They already have an item in their item list that gives them a +1 morale boost when around an Orc battle standard, so that kind of works for the "teamwork" angle.
I could always mess around with them more and give them a static bonus feat from the "teamwork" feats.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're always free to do as you want, but ...I invite you to take a look at the Cavalier feats. These more than any other (I think) illustrate "tactical mastery", which if you consider the evolution of unit warfare, is what the battlefield is all about.
Ferocity is important, yes, but do orcs possess the unit cohesion, discipline, and tactical sense to make a unit of warriors most effective? Could a unit of orcs do a shield wall, or would they freak out? Could a unit of orcs hold their position while other troops moved into formation (and stole the glory)...? Food for thought.
You're always free to do as you want, but ...I invite you to take a look at the Cavalier feats. These more than any other (I think) illustrate "tactical mastery", which if you consider the evolution of unit warfare, is what the battlefield is all about.
Ferocity is important, yes, but do orcs possess the unit cohesion, discipline, and tactical sense to make a unit of warriors most effective? Could a unit of orcs do a shield wall, or would they freak out? Could a unit of orcs hold their position while other troops moved into formation (and stole the glory)...? Food for thought.
I'd say an Orc with the new stat layout I adjusted would be capable. Without their minus to Wis or Int, they're no dumber than humans, and no more prone unwise decisions.
They're just a little surly.
One of the big events in a game I ran once, where players were counts, was one guy that civilised some desert orcs. Took them from nomadic and partly agricultural existence, equipped them in a better fashion, trained them up and gave them a fortress to control once they proved themselves in battle.
The orcs became serious players in the war quite quick. They jumped to feudal tech. Some were still skirmishers and raiders, but they did try cav and medium pike units. Dig in and make the enemies pay.
Saw a show where they trained a rugby team to use pike formations, so sure orcs can do it too.
That game sounds like it was fun Loyalist :)
Though I disagree that a rugby team is a good orc analog. Orcs have some fundamental cultural barriers to overcome to become a proper military. The rugby team lives in a society where the image of roman legionnaires is almost a synonym for "Military prowess." When you are teaching them pike formations, they want to succeed.
With the orcs, their culture is based around the idea of personal glory in battle. To teach them pike formations, I think you would need to break all that culture and you could potentially run into a biological inclination to horde tactics. Maybe orcs have an overdeveloped (compared to humans) adrenal gland, and when the fighting starts they just run on instinct.
In this case, making the orcs into a roman-type military would take several generations of training and re-education. Or magic. You can always use magic :)
Well not all orcs are the same, that would be orcish essentialism.
The nomad orcs could learn pike drill and control more territory. They were good swordsmen to begin with. They were similar to Bedouin tribes that just needed a push to get out there into the wider world. In a sense, angrier than other orcs because if you needlessly waste energy in a desert environment you will die.
Orcs + patience + innovation = dangerous.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Interestingly enough, Warhammer 40k has a relavent bit of fluff when it comes to orcs (orks in their case) and team work.
Most orks are idiots. "Drunken soccer hooligans" are how they're often described by GamesWorkshop. It takes a special ork to rise through the ranks, get an idea in his head about conquest, and then he basically tries to "herd cats" for as long as possible to destroy as much stuff as possible before his little crusade falls apart.
But some orks are different. Some orks are born called to a life of marching, training, and grimness. Some feel the pull toward following orders and formulating actual stategies.
These orks often run off and join the "Goff" clan, a clan entirely made up of orks that are a little more organized and smarter than your average greenskin.
In Warhammer fantasy they have an equivalent called black orcs, who often find themselves in position of leadership in orc tribes because of their increase intelligence and, in rules terms, they don't suffer from animosity, the thing that makes most orc/orks start fighting amongst themselves.
In PF's default setting, they even mention how orcs are smart enough to realize that half-orcs are smarter than they are so they actually like half-orcs and often times they end up as leaders of orc tribes.
I remember a little rule a friend added years ago to Orcs, they are so ferocious and nasty in a punch-up, that they do 1d4 lethal with their unarmed (tusks, curb-stompin).