| Marius Corvinus Gabela |
I have 2 questions here:
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
Do I assume right this means that if the Magus takes the Two Weapon Fighting feats he gets the additional offhand attacks as additional spells of standard or less casting time given as bonus spells cast per turn?
The other question is that because of flavor and "theme concept" I plan to focus on ravens, and have as Cabalist Magus the Fey Bloodline taken at level 7. This gives me the animal companion ability I know that, but I wish to replace a single raven at level 9 for a Raven Swarm as it acts like a single animal but in the RP it could mean a lot of ravens sitting on the rooftops or surrounding the Magus. I see mentions of using [swarm] animal and vermin companions but nothing this specific. Would it be fine to take the raven swarm at level 9 this way? I believe most improved familiars are also gained at level 7-9.
As animal companions tend to die in battle if not some great beast, explaining how a scattered flock of ravens with some dead ones can regroup 24 hours later is also a good RP explanation to regain the companion.
| Grick |
Do I assume right this means that if the Magus takes the Two Weapon Fighting feats he gets the additional offhand attacks as additional spells of standard or less casting time given as bonus spells cast per turn?
Spell Combat is a full-round action. You can cast a spell, and make normal iterative attacks.
Two-Weapon Fighting requires using the full-attack action, which is also a full-round action. You make normal iterative attacks, and one bonus attack with your off-hand.
You can't do both in one round.
| Mojorat |
You cannot two weapon fight and use spell combat. The twf feat does not help Magus spell combat at all you can do one or the other not both.
Secondly the cabalist stuff was a bit confusing as it involves 3pp stuff. But I can basically give you two answers. You shouldn't be able to get the familiar at all as you are not a sorcerer and it is a sorcerer archetype. But there's a giant thread arguing this so moving on.
A raven is not a valid animal companion, though it is as a familiar. You cannot give it the swarm template with the rules. For one a raven swarm is like a thousand birds.
| joriandrake |
TWF:
I didn't mean to use the two as separated, I assumed that the improved TWF and similar feats would also affect the magus spell combat ability, the basic TWF feat may be needed to be wasted though as their prerequisite. ("This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.")
Raven:
Cabalist's main reason to be picked it to get the benefits of one sorcerer bloodline, then there is also the Eldritch Heritage feats so it is not a question if the character gains these abilities because the answer is yes. One way or another the bloodline could be taken anyway as Skill Focus (Nature) requirement is fulfilling the prerequisite for both Sylvan and Arcane bloodlines via E.H.
I didn't give the raven any template, I used the base described Raven Swarm, which acts and counts as one creature per statistics. The planned advancement of the character using the "raven theme" would have it take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) at third level, giving it also the ability to have a raven as familiar, until a later level where it would be replaced through Improved Familiar by an Imp which takes the form of a raven and is usually invisible.
So, the only issue is, would a Druid be able to take the Raven Swarm then? Or just as Pack Lord archetype to avoid discussions about having more than "one" companion however one sees the raven swarm in numbers. I wouldn't mind taking a single level as Pack Lord just to use its ability as requirement fulfilling for getting the raven swarm. Honestly, as per stats a raven swarm is a single animal and thus a Pack Lord could have multiple raven swarms, I just want one, mostly for flavor.
| Grick |
TWF:
I didn't mean to use the two as separated, I assumed that the improved TWF and similar feats would also affect the magus spell combat ability, the basic TWF feat may be needed to be wasted though as their prerequisite. ("This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.")
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (and the other TWF feats) only work when Two-Weapon Fighting.
Spell Combat is not Two-Weapon Fighting, it's a completely different action.
That line is just to show that you make your normal attacks with one hand, and cast one spell with the other hand, similar to two-weapon fighting where you make your normal attacks with one hand, and make another attack with your off-hand.
| Bobson |
so what then? if I would have all the TWF feats as a magus I wouldn't have any offhand attacks? or wouldn't be able to cast normally? or one offhand attack would be a spell and all others normal offhand melee attacks?
You would be able to either make all your normal TWF attacks, or you could use Spell Combat to make all your main-hand attacks and cast a spell (which could be delivered via an extra main-hand attack if it qualifies for Spellstrike).
| Mojorat |
TWF:
I didn't mean to use the two as separated, I assumed that the improved TWF and similar feats would also affect the magus spell combat ability, the basic TWF feat may be needed to be wasted though as their prerequisite. ("This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.")Raven:
Cabalist's main reason to be picked it to get the benefits of one sorcerer bloodline, then there is also the Eldritch Heritage feats so it is not a question if the character gains these abilities because the answer is yes. One way or another the bloodline could be taken anyway as Skill Focus (Nature) requirement is fulfilling the prerequisite for both Sylvan and Arcane bloodlines via E.H.I didn't give the raven any template, I used the base described Raven Swarm, which acts and counts as one creature per statistics. The planned advancement of the character using the "raven theme" would have it take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) at third level, giving it also the ability to have a raven as familiar, until a later level where it would be replaced through Improved Familiar by an Imp which takes the form of a raven and is usually invisible.
So, the only issue is, would a Druid be able to take the Raven Swarm then? Or just as Pack Lord archetype to avoid discussions about having more than "one" companion however one sees the raven swarm in numbers. I wouldn't mind taking a single level as Pack Lord just to use its ability as requirement fulfilling for getting the raven swarm. Honestly, as per stats a raven swarm is a single animal and thus a Pack Lord could have multiple raven swarms, I just want one, mostly for flavor.
Sigh i was really trying to avoid Adressing Archetypes and Eldritch Heritage. But here goes first. As far as your Magus Archetype goes. without the Dm agreeing to it you cannot take a Sorcerer Archetype. Your not a sorcerer. Secondly as far as Eldritch Heritage goes the Fey Sylvan Archetype is likely not viable for eldritch Heritage because you dont have both of the things it swaps out. (this isnt even addressing the issue of selecting an Archetype with Eldritch Heritage at all which i will not touch as there is another thread on it)
Secondly where is 'raven' a selected option for an Animal companion for any class that grants Animal companions. It is selected as a familiar yes, not an animal companion.
A swarm of flying tiny creatures is litterally nearly a thousand animals from what i understand.
No class with animal companion as a class feature that i am aware of can have a swarm as an Animal companion.
Your basically entering into house rule Territory. but from the reading of the normal rules what you want to do cannot be done.
| joriandrake |
I would like to get a link to that thread you constantly mention. Also, as far I know any animal can be taken as companion except elephant if HD is okay. The Pack Lord Druid would basically already be able to have a lot of 1/4-1 HD companions as it modifies the use of animal companion to benefit of mental connection and similar things with all of them. I do however wish to avoid having to advance as Druid though, and the fake alien thing a Summoner gets is something I never want to take, plus there is not even an Archetype for it to use instead magical beasts or animals.
| Mojorat |
Here is the most relevant http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5wu9?Sorcerer-Dip-Eldritch-Heritage-and-Sylvan
But two more, there was a fourth talking about archetypes I couldnt find.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5x8p?Archetypes-and-class-features-gained-from
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3y7z?Eldritch-Heritage-and-Wildblooded-Bloodlin es.
As far as AC go. You have to take an animal as an AC that has an AC stat block or use a similar statblock from an existing suitable AC. I haven't read the rules on the brood master. But far as I know all AC outside of an explicit exception are starting as small.
And as I said before there's no way to get an AC as a swarm that I know of.
| joriandrake |
hm, at worst case it could be a changed falcon used as raven, but considering that raven is already there as familiar option it shouldn't be an issue, it just couldn't talk that's all.
Thanks for the links, will look through them, if taking that bloodline is an issue maybe just going Battle Sorcerer and use Sylvan bloodline and with feats get the arcane familiar will have to do, although that would mean giving up on the hexcrafter part of the witch's son magus with the raven theme.
| Sleet Storm |
I would like to get a link to that thread you constantly mention. Also, as far I know any animal can be taken as companion except elephant if HD is okay. The Pack Lord Druid would basically already be able to have a lot of 1/4-1 HD companions as it modifies the use of animal companion to benefit of mental connection and similar things with all of them. I do however wish to avoid having to advance as Druid though, and the fake alien thing a Summoner gets is something I never want to take, plus there is not even an Archetype for it to use instead magical beasts or animals.
There is an Archetype for it First Worlder
| joriandrake |
If you just want a raven familiar there is an arcana. You could also ask your dim if you can learn appropriate spells to summon raven swarms. Thoough off the top of my head I am not sure what those are. If they are wizard spells there is an arcana to learn them.
In my topic starting post the raven swarm name is also a link that redirects to the actual creature. I thought you knew what it is as we discuss it.
I am still reading through the last link but have already read all of what you gave, I don't see many problems (most can be avoided or are not even an issue), only the actual question about how a raven swarm could be handled.
joriandrake wrote:I would like to get a link to that thread you constantly mention. Also, as far I know any animal can be taken as companion except elephant if HD is okay. The Pack Lord Druid would basically already be able to have a lot of 1/4-1 HD companions as it modifies the use of animal companion to benefit of mental connection and similar things with all of them. I do however wish to avoid having to advance as Druid though, and the fake alien thing a Summoner gets is something I never want to take, plus there is not even an Archetype for it to use instead magical beasts or animals.There is an Archetype for it First Worlder
Thanks, I know of that one, it is still some alien fey or plant like creature things it uses, closer to what I looked for but still very far away
| joriandrake |
Okay, I read through it all.
Getting a lot of ravens (using falcon as base creature) could be done already with Pack Lord. Using the raven swarm instead however makes things easier for both player and GM, it is considered a single animal and one attack or spell affect the whole "'all animals" (the whole creature) in the swarm. It makes the many ravens easier to kill and while alive to handle them as a single entity only using one initiative roll and et cetera. Not using multiple creatures is usually preferred by GM-s and thus the idea of using a single Raven Swarm as animal companion is most likely preferable by majority of players and GM-s.
Getting the Sylvan bloodline seems a bit more questionable, but just as if a feat can be taken by multiple classes doesn't restrict others take it as long the prerequisite is given, or how a a cleric Domain can have multiple Subdomains the existing examples show it is possible.
A subdomain replaces one or both domain powers, may modify domain spells granted too. This is exactly what wildblood bloodlines do to a sorcerer bloodline. Just as a subdomain is still a domain, a wildblood bloodline is still a bloodline.
That a non-sorcerer character can take the Eldritch Heritage feat and through it gain ("awake") some slumbering ability of a bloodline in himself shows this can be done with all bloodlines including the Sylvan one. The fact that through the feat a non-caster gets access to a familiar if his choices is the Arcane bloodline is a proof that the same way the Sylvan bloodline has no reason not to also grant the Animal Companion to a character in a similar situation.
If a bloodline power is gained through the use of Eldritch Heritage, the power is considered to be -2 levels to the actual character level. The Sylvan bloodline gives an animal companion to the actual Sorcerer already at a -3 level modifier.
So, a character that gains the familiar ability through Eldritch Heritage would have to advance/improve the familiar as if a Sorcerer -2 levels compared to his character level. A Sylvan bloodline granted Animal Companion also gained through Eldritch Heritage would thus result in a companion that has a -5 level modifier compared to character level.
An animal companion taken in this way would not get a second Hit Dice and "evolve" until the character becomes level 7. To get the Sylvan granted companion through Eldritch Heritage one already has to be at least level 3, have the correct Skill Focus feat as requirement, and to minimize the additional weakness of such a companion the character should take Boon Companion atleast once. This is 3 feats used up just to have an Animal Companion which for most people is for nothing else than for flavor addition to their character who wants an animal. Getting an animal companion could also be gained through archetypes or multiclassing so these costs seems more than balanced compared to them.
Thus, you want a proper animal companion for your monk or wizard? You will spend 3 feats on getting it (unless there are some archetypes for these classes that grant it anyway). Considering that in pathfinder you already have a dozen or more options to have a follower or companion of many kinds, and there are even many archetypes for classes that in 3rd Edition had none such, 3 feats seems fair. (or 2 if you don't mind your companion to be even less useful in battles)
So, leaving the realm of bloodlines and the Eldritch Heritage, we get to the Archetype of magus called Cabalist. The Cabalist grants the bloodline powers to a Magus of a chosen bloodline. This is similar to how Eldritch Heritage works but more powerful, gained at the listed levels according to its own rules on how that is handled. ("At 7th level, a cabalist gains access to the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers from one sorcerous bloodline")
Well, there are classes that can get abilities usually only used by barbarians, ninjas, druids, wizards, monks, rogues... so why should the bloodlines be an exception?
In the end as I see it a Cabalist Magus can pick a bloodline from any bloodline including wild ones at level 7, And gain additional bloodline abilities just as any other class could using the Eldritch Heritage feats. So if a Cabalist Magus wanted to he could get the Sylvan Bloodline as his main (Cabalist class granted) bloodline, and also pick a few powers from other like the Arcane, Giant, or Envenomed bloodlines through Eldritch Heritage access.
| joriandrake |
What does this mean for my own, current case? It means that my Cabalist Hexcrafter with the raven-theme can get the animal companion at level 7 through Sylvan bloodline (if it manages to survive till then) but already gain a familiar raven at level 3 via Eldritch Heritage if Skill Focus ("any knowledge skill") is taken before it to qualify for the Arcane bloodline ability. This way the familiar has a -2 level modifier.
This however doesn't solve my problem with the raven swarm, despite it being a simpler way to handle a single creature as swarm than a dozen or more birds the swarm seems very much up to GM-s to agree to it. So sadly I think its pretty low chance that I can as I planned have the raven theme work out with always having a lot of ravens around my character, or as in "Birds" staring at the streets creepy kinda way.
As for the TWF, yes there doesn't seem to be a way to improve Spell Combat after I checked the Monk class for its flurry mechanics.
| Bobson |
Also, as far I know any animal can be taken as companion except elephant if HD is okay. The Pack Lord Druid would basically already be able to have a lot of 1/4-1 HD companions as it modifies the use of animal companion to benefit of mental connection and similar things with all of them.
A druid may begin play with any of the animals listed in Animal Choices.
Ravens are not on that list. Neither are raven swarms. Also, the pack lord can't get more than 16 companions, because he only gets to divide up his normal AC hit dice.
| joriandrake |
that is still 16 separate entities, while a single standard raven swarm also has less than 20 hp and as it is considered 1 creature it is easier to kill through spells/etc (gets only one save per effects, etc)
The flavor and fluff makes the Swarm more than one creature, but with the same effect I could call a cat a horde of kittens if in the end they still act as a single entity.
Don't you think that currently not even a druid could do something like focusing and controlling a lot of birds (be it ravens, doves, or such), rats, or bugs strictly by the book weird?
Owen K. C. Stephens
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None of the Rules As Written will let you swap a "pack" or ravens for a raven swarm. If a GM decided to allow it to make his life easier that might be smart, but it's entirely a houserule.
The Cabalist archetype has no impact on either trying to fight with two weapons as a magus (though that book does have options to let you do that, at the cost of not doing other things), or getting a raven swarm rather than a raven familiar.
And as mentioned, RAW there's no way for a magus to get a sorcerer archetype, even if the magus is a cabalist.
But it sounds like most of these are things that should be discusses with your GM, rather than a messageboard. Our opinion doesn't matter in your game. :)