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Greetings Pathfinders,
Can you help me better understand the concepts behind advancing monsters, NPCs, and adding racial hit dice?
1) When "advancing" is there a reason advancement usually only goes advanced +1, advanced +2, or advanced +3? What is the conceptual scope around advancement as to why we only advance 1-3 levels?
2) When adding racial hit dice, the scope of adding can range from 1-20 or even beyond if desired. Is there a right "balance" when advancing racial hit dice i.e. advance to increase CR desired? Is there a point when one should "advance" the creature +3 rather than add as many racial hit dice?
3) Conceptually, is "advancing" just another way to increase the power of a monster or NPC other than by class levels?
4) Is "advancement" a consistent increase to CR 1:1, whereas adding class levels usually results in the monster/npc -1 CR level?
5) Overall, can anyone conceptually and simply distinguish for me advancement by class level vs. "advancement" vs. racial hit dice? Can you add some guidelines that seem to create opponents that are more "realistic" for the milieu?
6) Is "advancement" typically associated with special cases or the application of templates, such as a GM wishing to create a unique opponent, i.e. Advanced Awakened Dire Ape?
Thanks Paizonians! I'm trying to gain a better understanding.
Question: What are you intending to achieve?
There are a couple of rules for advancing by class levels (along with gaining stat bonuses) that can be used to cram a nuclear bombshell into relatively a low CR. (Demon antipaladin, I am looking at you!)
When HD advancing, you just add hit dice, posibly increasing the critter's size (along with the usual changes to Str and Con the size brings), and then re-calculate all the derived numbers.
3.5 had guidelines about what creature type gains a CR per how many HD, PF does not.
I recommend you just re-calculate your monster, and then check the result with the tables in the bestiary, the one that indicates usual HP, AC, attacks, damage, saves and the like... and determine into which CR line your advanced beastie would fall.
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Question: What are you intending to achieve?
In general, I'm trying to understand the concepts more thoroughly. Once I "get it" everything else that is math or minutae will follow.
For example, as a GM, I'd like to be able to concept my adventure, concept my monsters, and then make adjustments to their CRs to fit the encounter designs. I'm finding this to be much more coherent.. not to mention a pleasurable approach to game design for my group.
It's the oposite of finding creatures, looking at CRs, and then picking different ones because the PCs are too high or too low.
With a better understanding, I envision my encounters more layered (boss, lackeys, minions in layers for big battles) and also more thematic, where I can use a variety of say... swamp creatues without much concern whether they are initially "statted" for low or high level play.
There are some good rules for this on the PRD from the Bestiary. Mix a couple of templates with adding class levels and/or straight HD, and you should have it worked out pretty well. I've advanced a few low-level modules with relative success. The guidelines presented aren't perfect for every situation, but they are a great place to start. Work with them, then fiddle as appropriate. It really is more art than science in some cases.
You will probably have to add in extra abilities for power-based creatures as you advance them, but that's not too hard to do (just look for appropriate level spell-like abilities and spells to give them, then add those in).
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Thanks. What about the "advancement"? Is it typically done only "advanced +1, advanced +2, advanced +3" ?
Racial hit dice seem to go to 20, with commensurate CR bump into the 20s if needed.
Overall NPCs and creatures with class levels tend to be CRX-1.
I was using Hero Lab the other day and it marked my character as CRX-1. Does this imply that the "threat" or challenge rating of a level 7 character or NPC is that # minus 1? I believe it does.
Regarding Class levels:
A character of a 0HD race (as most playable races are) is considered to have a CR equal to his level-1 if he has class levels in a Player Character Class, or one less than that if he only has levels in NPC classes (Adept, Commoner, Expert, Warrior).
Please note that officially, NPCs with class levels in PC classess have a basic stat array of 15 14 13 12 10 8, while those with only NPC class levels have 13 12 11 10 9 8.
These numbers assume the character in question has NPC equipment (roughly 1/4 of the WBL appropriate for a PC). If the equipment is on par with PCs of the same level, the CR increases by 1.
For monsters with class levels, the calculation is a bit different, and more difficult. The resource linked by Two Face contains more on that matter.
Due to the fact that these rules may create... less than stellar results, my advice on monsters with class levels is to check the creature you generated against the table in the Bestiary, where CR-appropriate HP, attacks, and to forth are given.
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On Advancement in general:
You can advance a monster in any combination of the following three ways:
1) Add a template, or templates. The so-called 'advanced' template is just one template of many (and just shares a name with 'advancing' the monster).
Usually, you do not apply multiples of a template (as an advanced advanced advanced advanced crocodile is starting to get silly). However, no one stops you from creating a advanced giant fiendish monster, applying all three templates at once.
2) Add HD to the creature. This will increase BAB and saves as appropriate for the creature, and yield additional feats every 2 HD.
3) Add class levels to the creature. If there are player class levels among them, modify the critter's stats (+4 to two, +2 to two, and -2 to one stat). Then, apply BAB increase, better saves and all the other class features.
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Okay... So here is a creature. Typically, I would say, oh the CR is low, let me look for other creatures for Monday's game of 6 players at Level 3 = APL 4.
ORC CR 1/3
XP: 135
Orc warrior 1
CE Medium humanoid
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception -1
DEFENSE
AC 13, touch 10, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor)
HP 6 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +0, Will -1
Defensive Abilities ferocity; Weaknesses light sensitivity
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee falchion +5 (2d4+4/18-20)
Ranged javelin +1 (1d6+3)
Space 5 ft., Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Weapon Focus (falchion)
Skills Intimidate +2
Languages Common, Orc
SQ weapon familiarity
ECOLOGY
Environment temperate hills, mountains, or underground
Organization solitary, gang (2-4), squad (11-20 plus 2 sergeants of 3rd level and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level), or band (30-100 plus 150% noncombatants plus 1 sergeant of 3rd level per 10 adults, 1 lieutenant of 5th level per 20 adults, and 1 leader of 7th level per 30
Treasure NPC gear (studded leather armor, falchion, 4 javelins, other treasure)
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Now I can say, well, "I really want to have them fight the Orc king's tribe in the hills nearby." So I create the following advanced +3 Orc, and get to use my orc minis, and an orc story theme even though the part is at 3rd level APL4. Does this make sense?
"ORGLUSH MANYKILLER" ORC (Advanced +3) CR3
XP: 800
Orc warrior 1
CE Medium humanoid
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+3 armor, +6 natural, +6 Dex)
HP 12 (1d10+7)
Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +5
Defensive Abilities ferocity; Weaknesses light sensitivity
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee falchion +11 (2d4+13/18-20)
Ranged javelin +7 (1d6+9)
Space 5 ft., Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 29, Dex 23, Con 24, Int 19, Wis 20, Cha 18
Base Atk +1; CMB +10; CMD 26
Feats Weapon Focus (falchion)
Skills Intimidate +8, Climb +13, Craft +8, Handle Animal +8, Heal +9, Profession +9, Ride +10, Survival +9
Languages Common, Orc
SQ weapon familiarity
ECOLOGY
Environment temperate hills, mountains, or underground
Organization solitary, gang (2-4), squad (11-20 plus 2 sergeants of 3rd level and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level), or band (30-100 plus 150% noncombatants plus 1 sergeant of 3rd level per 10 adults, 1 lieutenant of 5th level per 20 adults, and 1 leader of 7th level per 30
Treasure NPC gear (studded leather armor, falchion, 4 javelins, other treasure)
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OR... I can just advance his racial hit dice by 4, rather than use the advanced +3 template, right?
"GARGAK THOL" ORC (Racial HD +4)
XP: 800
Orc warrior 1
CE Medium humanoid
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception -1
DEFENSE
AC 13, touch 10, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor)
HP 32 (5d10+5)
Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +0
Defensive Abilities ferocity; Weaknesses light sensitivity
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee falchion +9 (2d4+6/18-20)
Ranged javelin +4 (1d6+4)
Space 5 ft., Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 18, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 6
Base Atk +4; CMB +8; CMD 18
Feats Weapon Focus (falchion)
Skills Intimidate +3, Climb +8, Craft +2, Handle Animal +2, Heal +3, Profession +3, Ride +4, Survival +3
Languages Common, Orc
SQ weapon familiarity
ECOLOGY
Environment temperate hills, mountains, or underground
Organization solitary, gang (2-4), squad (11-20 plus 2 sergeants of 3rd level and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level), or band (30-100 plus 150% noncombatants plus 1 sergeant of 3rd level per 10 adults, 1 lieutenant of 5th level per 20 adults, and 1 leader of 7th level per 30
Treasure NPC gear (studded leather armor, falchion, 4 javelins, other treasure)
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OR ... I can advance him once and add just 3 racial HD. This must be the "art" the earlier poster was mentioning.... Where you strike a balance amongst the templates and advanced HD to get it just right? What do you think?"
"TROCH GREMIK" ORC +3HD (Advanced +1) CR3
XP: 800
Orc warrior 1
CE Medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +1
DEFENSE
AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15 (+3 armor, +2 natural, +2 Dex)
HP 33 (4d10+12)
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +2
Defensive Abilities ferocity; Weaknesses light sensitivity
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee falchion +10 (2d4+7/18-20)
Ranged javelin +6 (1d6+5)
Space 5 ft., Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 21, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +9; CMD 21
Feats Weapon Focus (falchion)
Skills Intimidate +4, Climb +9, Craft +4, Handle Animal +4, Heal +6, Profession +6, Ride +7, Survival +6
Languages Common, Orc
SQ weapon familiarity
ECOLOGY
Environment temperate hills, mountains, or underground
Organization solitary, gang (2-4), squad (11-20 plus 2 sergeants of 3rd level and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level), or band (30-100 plus 150% noncombatants plus 1 sergeant of 3rd level per 10 adults, 1 lieutenant of 5th level per 20 adults, and 1 leader of 7th level per 30
Treasure NPC gear (studded leather armor, falchion, 4 javelins, other treasure)