Craft checks and ink-making

[Caedwyr]

I'm wondering what other GMs and players think about the following Craft/Profession checks to make the following inks. I've tried to extrapolate the DCs based on the Craft table. Do the numbers seem too high, too low, about right, should there be an alternate skill or a substitute skill used for their creation, or do you have any other thoughts?

Black Ink...................Craft (alchemy) DC 15
Chalk.......................Profession (mining) DC 10
Charcoal (1 stick)..........Craft (alchemy) DC 10 or Profession (woodcutter) DC 10
Ghost Ink...................Craft (alchemy) DC 25
Glowing Ink.................Craft (alchemy) DC 20
Invisible Ink, Simple.......Craft (alchemy) DC 20
Invisible Ink, Average......Craft (alchemy) DC 25
Invisible Ink, Good.........Craft (alchemy) DC 30
Invisible Ink, Superior.....Craft (alchemy) DC 35
Octopus Ink.................Craft (alchemy) DC 20
Stained Animal Blood Ink....Craft (alchemy) DC 25
Stained Humanoid Blood Ink..Craft (alchemy) DC 35

Note that Octopus Ink is more resistant to fire damage, while Stained Animal Blood Ink is more resistant to fire and water, and Stained Humanoid Blood Ink is more resistant to fire and water and also increases the caster level of necromancy spells/scrolls written in the blood.

[BigNorseWolf]

the 35 dc's are too high. You're getting close to the realm of the impossible/fantastic there, like swimming up a waterfall.

[Ciaran Barnes]

No way. I think that is DC 100. :)

35 is pretty high though.

[Caedwyr]

For reference, the DC 35 inks are

1. An invisible ink that only turns visible for a unique trigger (like a specific person touches the page).

2. A type of ink that is more resistant to water and fire, and boosts the caster level of all necromancy spells/scrolls scribed with it.

Would those type of things be more reasonable for a DC 30 check? Also, aren't craft checks fairly easy to boost your numbers on? (Aid another, masterwork tools, skill focus feats, and I think a couple of other ways)

I'm not saying you aren't correct, I'm just trying to calibrate my understanding of what a reasonable high end DC would be.

[MagiMaster]

This may or may not be helpful, but:

DC 1 - something no one without penalties can fail at
DC 11 - something Average Joe can do half the time without any practice under stress, or always (take 10) without stress
DC 20 - something Joe can do given enough time and material

At level 1, a hyper-specialized human can get 5(attribute) + 4(1 rank and trained) + 3(skill focus) + 2(other skill feat) + 1(trait) + 2(masterwork tools) = +17, though I feel like I've got something off there. So those DCs become
DC 18 - Can't fail
DC 28 - 50/50 or take 10
DC 37 - Take 20

By level 20, that becomes 10(attribute) + 23(20 ranks and trained) + 6(skill focus) + 2(other skill feat) + 1(trait) + 4(magic tools) = +46, roughly.
DC 47 - Can't fail
DC 57 - Take 10
DC 66 - Take 20

It's not exactly right, but you can interpolate between those values to get other levels. Which gives something close to 25 + level*1.5 for the take-10 value, BTW. Of course, you'd probably want to lower that a bit for the more normal builds.

[Exocrat]

I just started playing a halfling wizard who, at level 1, hits +19 on trained Craft checks.

4 INT + 2 Ingratiating (ARG trait) + 2 Adaptable Luck (ARG trait, luck bonus) + 1 rank + 3 class skill + 2 masterwork tool + 5 Crafter's Fortune

So he takes 10 for a 29. This is without any Craft Feats.

[deuxhero]

^^ You can't take 20 on craft skills as there is a penalty for failure.

[MagiMaster]

Can't you take 20 at 20x the cost of materials?

[Benly]

Leaving aside PCs who are hyperfocused, think about which NPCs can make it.

A trained but not extraordinary level 1 expert will have a +5 in his trade (trained, class skill, add a trait such as Professional Blacksmith or something to make it round nicely.) He will reliably be able to make DC 15 items. On a good day he can make DC 20 items, but there's a decent chance he'll waste some supplies trying. DC 25 items are theoretically possible, but in practice he's not good enough to make them without a huge waste of supplies. This guy is the average artisan selling his average goods.

An especially skilled expert with pride in his work will add Skill Focus. In terms of what he can reliably make, he's about the same, but he also has a pretty decent chance of making DC 20 items - he'll fumble badly enough to lose money on the deal less than half the time. That said, he's still losing money 35% of the time, which isn't great. DC 25 items are within his capabilities, but not by much. He could sell DC 20 and 25 items, but he'll have to overcharge to make up the losses.

Let's look at these guys' guildmaster. Now this guy is some serious business: he has a 14 Int, Skill Focus, the secondary skill feat, a trait, and he's level 5. (14 Int seem a little low? Take a look at the "Creating NPCs" part of the PRD - 13 starting Int for a skilled NPC without PC class levels. Presumably he bumped it up at level 4, since this stuff is his lifeblood.) The guildmaster has a +16 to his skill check, which ain't half bad. He can reliably make DC 25 items. DC 30 items he still has a 45% chance of losing money on. DC 35 items are theoretically possible, but he'll have to try over and over, losing money each time he fails.

So, looking at that: a DC 35 item is going to be the lifetime achievement of a great artisan. A DC 30 item is going to be impossible for ordinary or good craftsmen and difficult for a great artisan. DC 25 is ordinary work for a great artisan and rough going for anyone else - an ordinary schlub craftsman could spend a long time and a lot of money trying to match the Great Artisan's everyday works.

PCs, of course, blow this out of the water, because PCs blow a lot of things out of the water. PCs are Great People by default. What I hope to get at with this is a better sense of what a given DC reflects about an item's place in the world at large.

If nothing else, remember that 10 points of Craft DC is the difference between "I can make this without needing to roll" and "I am barely capable of creating this item and will mostly just fail and waste money." The scale is not especially granular.

[Caedwyr]

Can't you use Aid Another on Craft checks? Given a craft workshop, I'd think you'd be getting multiple aid another bonuses on each craft check, otherwise you are going to be pretty limited in your output.

[Caedwyr]

For those interested, I used some of the suggestions made here in my conversion of Bastion Press's Ink & Quill spellbook/scroll variant creation rules. I've taken a certain amount of creative license when doing this update, as between 3.0 and 3.5 there were a number of things that needed to be reconcilled, and there were a number of holes caused by the edition change. Most numbers used in the original needed to be recalculated/rebalanced, and I'm certain I've made a number of errors or inconsitencies. If you want to take a look and/or point out my mistakes, then you should check out

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz6036?Conversion-of-Bastion-Presss-Ink-Quill-Scr olls