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Just a couple of questions from the ARG
First is the +1/2 level to one oracle revelation that elves asamir iffrit and sylph can take.
Dark Tapestry Mytery
Dweller in the depth revelation: at 17th level cast weird 1/day
with the above favoured bonus you get that at 12th level , not that I'm complaining I just think its pretty sweet :)
Second question
Asamir Feat
Heavenly Radiance
basically gives you an extra use of daylight and another spell you can exchange for one use.
My question is if you took any of the xxxx spell like ability e.g. extend, empower quicken etc would it apply to both daylight and any other spells you took with this feat ?
Lovin the ARG by the way :)
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Does it work that way?
You cannot take the revelation until 11th level. So you shouldn't be able to apply the bonus from favored level until 11th. So at 12th level it would be at a level 13.
I don't think you can apply a bonus to something you do not have.
So I think the earliest you could get 17th level would be at 15th.
Does it work that way?
You cannot take the revelation until 11th level. So you shouldn't be able to apply the bonus from favored level until 11th. So at 12th level it would be at a level 13.
I don't think you can apply a bonus to something you do not have.
So I think the earliest you could get 17th level would be at 15th.
aren't favoured bonuses always chosen at first level ? even if they don't start applying until later
aren't favoured bonuses always chosen at first level ? even if they don't start applying until later
No, you can switch them out as you please. A hit point one level, a skill point the next, then a racial favored class bonus at third. Mix and match as you please.
On this specific issue, you could argue that nothing stops you from pulling this off. Unlike, say, the Magus bonus that gives extra uses of 1/day abilities, the Oracle thing doesn't specificy "known." Then again, many other abilities (extra uses of 3+/day powers, for example) don't specify that you have to know them, but I'd think most people would agree that is the intent. Personally, I probably wouldn't allow it just because weird would be too disruptive at level 12. But I'd certainly congratulate you on ingenuity for noticing it.
The elf version, at least, is a bonus to the effects of one revelation; I don't think it's meant to give you the ability sooner. I haven't read the wording on the other versions.
All 4 of the versions read the same as the elf version.
The bonus is add 1/2 to the effects of one revelation. It does not add 1/2 to the level of the oracle for determining when you can take it. That would read more like this:
Oracle: Add 1/2 to your oracle level for determining when you may take revelations.
The difference? The actual wording boost the effect of a revelation. So if you have, say, the bones mystery, if you use the armor of bones ability, your oracle level is increased for determining the AC bonus. That's an effect. What you're confusing is that the dweller in the depths revelation has is a prerequisite.
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Would you also say that the human rogue favored class bonus (+1/6 rogue talent) can't be taken at first level, because you don't have the Rogue Talent class feature until second level?There is nothing stopping someone from spending their favoured class bonus improving an ability they don't have quite yet.Except game logic.
As a GM I would point to the Fly skill rule as an example of "no, you can't improve something you don't know".
Totally different, that bonus gives you a extra something after 6 levels of taking that bonus.
It is not altering something you do not have before you get it.
i don't really see the clear-cut difference vs. the rogue talent example.
the +1/2 part clearly shows that you can take this fav.class bonus with out having any effect (on a given level).
until you actually have the revelation, nothing is being altered, you just have a 'latent' bonus that is unused.
there's several other rules items that let you choose spells at first level (to receive a bonus) that you can't cast at first level. you can choose favored class that you don't take until later levels (or never).
it clearly doesn't let you meet the level pre-req to pick up the revelation, i don't think anybody is arguing that... but i don't see why you can't pick the bonus to apply to that revelation, such that when you do qualify normally, you get a +classlevel bonus to the revelation's effects.
hit the FAQ.
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Would you also say that the human rogue favored class bonus (+1/6 rogue talent) can't be taken at first level, because you don't have the Rogue Talent class feature until second level?There is nothing stopping someone from spending their favoured class bonus improving an ability they don't have quite yet.Except game logic.
As a GM I would point to the Fly skill rule as an example of "no, you can't improve something you don't know".
Totally different, that bonus gives you a extra something after 6 levels of taking that bonus.
It is not altering something you do not have before you get it.
Yes it is. There's no difference between taking the favoured class bonus for the rogue at level one before getting rogue talents, and taking the favoured class bonus for the revelation before getting the revelation.
Not to mention there's nothing in the rules prohibiting it.
The elf version, at least, is a bonus to the effects of one revelation; I don't think it's meant to give you the ability sooner. I haven't read the wording on the other versions.
no it doesnt let you take the revelation sooner but in this example dweller in the depths can be taken at 11th level, it improves at 17th level
Btw anyone got any comments on the second questions about the Asamir Feat ?
The spell like metamagic feats are SLA specific so choosing feat X(daylight) would not apply it to another SLA.
The spell like metamagic feats are SLA specific so choosing feat X(daylight) would not apply it to another SLA.
Reason I ask is becuase its the same spell like ability you just have a choice which spell effect you use , shares the same use/day pool
Does it work that way?
You cannot take the revelation until 11th level. So you shouldn't be able to apply the bonus from favored level until 11th. So at 12th level it would be at a level 13.
I don't think you can apply a bonus to something you do not have.
So I think the earliest you could get 17th level would be at 15th.
I think it is obviously not intended to target something you are not actually able of doing, so agreed with bigkilla, yes I know it doesn't specifically say that but seriously...
The Quicken SLA feat and similar feats specifically targets a specific SLA of a level no higher than X, you can not use it on a different SLA even if it is powered by your same daily uses.
Does it work that way?
You cannot take the revelation until 11th level. So you shouldn't be able to apply the bonus from favored level until 11th. So at 12th level it would be at a level 13.
I don't think you can apply a bonus to something you do not have.
So I think the earliest you could get 17th level would be at 15th.
I think it is obviously not intended to target something you are not actually able of doing, so agreed with bigkilla, yes I know it doesn't specifically say that but seriously...
The Quicken SLA feat and similar feats specifically targets a specific SLA of a level no higher than X, you can not use it on a different SLA even if it is powered by your same daily uses.
So you saying that you wouldn't let a dwarf paladin take +1 on concentration checks to cast paladin spells until he reached 4th level ?
Out of curiosity, Herolab lets you take any favoured class bonus from 1st level , right or wrong.
You guys are probably right about the SLA's now I think about it more.
Does it work that way?
You cannot take the revelation until 11th level. So you shouldn't be able to apply the bonus from favored level until 11th. So at 12th level it would be at a level 13.
I don't think you can apply a bonus to something you do not have.
So I think the earliest you could get 17th level would be at 15th.
I think it is obviously not intended to target something you are not actually able of doing, so agreed with bigkilla, yes I know it doesn't specifically say that but seriously...
The Quicken SLA feat and similar feats specifically targets a specific SLA of a level no higher than X, you can not use it on a different SLA even if it is powered by your same daily uses.
So you saying that you wouldn't let a dwarf paladin take +1 on concentration checks to cast paladin spells until he reached 4th level ?
Out of curiosity, Herolab lets you take any favoured class bonus from 1st level , right or wrong.
You guys are probably right about the SLA's now I think about it more.
yes, though honestly no paladin would take that in my campaigns regardless.
The spell like metamagic feats are SLA specific so choosing feat X(daylight) would not apply it to another SLA.Reason I ask is becuase its the same spell like ability you just have a choice which spell effect you use , shares the same use/day pool
You are still casting a different SLA though. You are not casting daylight so the feat does not apply to the alternate spell. It only applies to what you are casting. All you are doing is giving up a use of daylight.
It is not much different than a cleric spontaneous coverting a spell to a cure spell. If I have spell focus(evocation) and I convert flamestrike into a cure spell that does not mean undead have a harder time resisting my cure spell just because the spell I got rid of to power the cure spell has a higher than normal DC.
So you saying that you wouldn't let a dwarf paladin take +1 on concentration checks to cast paladin spells until he reached 4th level ?Yes. Same for stuff like a ranger taking bonus HP to a Animal Companion he does not have.
Ok I just took this from APG page 9
***
Finally, some of these alternate favored class benefits
only add +1/2, +1/3, +1/4, or +1/6 to a roll (rather than +1)
each time the benefit is selected; when applying this result
to the die roll, round down (minimum 0). For example, a
dwarf with rogue as his favored class adds +1/2 to his trap
sense ability regarding stone traps each time he selects the
alternate rogue favored class benefit; though this means
the net effect is +0 after selecting it once (because +1/2
rounds down to +0), after 20 levels this benefit gives the
dwarf a +10 bonus to his trap sense (in addition to the base
value from being a 20th-level rogue).
***
Rogue Trap sense is not gained until 3rd level, this excerpt uses an example of taking the favored class for 20 levels which includes 2 levels when the character does not have trap sense.
Thoughts in light of that ?
Of course you can take a favored class bonus that is only useful later - exactly as taking something that gives +1/6 to something will only be useful later. As Phasics just showed, this is very much hinted at. I believe not allowing this, would be a house rule.
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So you saying that you wouldn't let a dwarf paladin take +1 on concentration checks to cast paladin spells until he reached 4th level ?Yes. Same for stuff like a ranger taking bonus HP to a Animal Companion he does not have.Ok I just took this from APG page 9
***
Finally, some of these alternate favored class benefits
only add +1/2, +1/3, +1/4, or +1/6 to a roll (rather than +1)
each time the benefit is selected; when applying this result
to the die roll, round down (minimum 0). For example, a
dwarf with rogue as his favored class adds +1/2 to his trap
sense ability regarding stone traps each time he selects the
alternate rogue favored class benefit; though this means
the net effect is +0 after selecting it once (because +1/2
rounds down to +0), after 20 levels this benefit gives the
dwarf a +10 bonus to his trap sense (in addition to the base
value from being a 20th-level rogue).
***Rogue Trap sense is not gained until 3rd level, this excerpt uses an example of taking the favored class for 20 levels which includes 2 levels when the character does not have trap sense.
Thoughts in light of that ?
I think that is a bad design choice.
I will still play it the way I play it in my games. I tend for more realism in my games.
That bolded area assumes you take the ability to improve trapfinding from level 1 to 20.
Note that it also says:
Finally, some of these alternate favored class benefits only add +1/2, +1/3, +1/4, or +1/6 to a roll (rather than +1) each time the benefit is selected; when applying this result to the die roll, round down (minimum 0). For example, a dwarf with rogue as his favored class adds +1/2 to his trapsense ability regarding stone traps each time he selects the alternate rogue favored class benefit; though this means the net effect is +0 after selecting it once (because +1/2 rounds down to +0), after 20 levels this benefit gives the dwarf a +10 bonus to his trap sense (in addition to the base value from being a 20th-level rogue).
\
By rounding down you don't benefit until the cycle is complete.As an example if the ability call for +1/4 and you only have 3 favored class points dedicated to it then you round down to 0.
So you saying that you wouldn't let a dwarf paladin take +1 on concentration checks to cast paladin spells until he reached 4th level ?Yes. Same for stuff like a ranger taking bonus HP to a Animal Companion he does not have.Ok I just took this from APG page 9
***
Finally, some of these alternate favored class benefits
only add +1/2, +1/3, +1/4, or +1/6 to a roll (rather than +1)
each time the benefit is selected; when applying this result
to the die roll, round down (minimum 0). For example, a
dwarf with rogue as his favored class adds +1/2 to his trap
sense ability regarding stone traps each time he selects the
alternate rogue favored class benefit; though this means
the net effect is +0 after selecting it once (because +1/2
rounds down to +0), after 20 levels this benefit gives the
dwarf a +10 bonus to his trap sense (in addition to the base
value from being a 20th-level rogue).
***Rogue Trap sense is not gained until 3rd level, this excerpt uses an example of taking the favored class for 20 levels which includes 2 levels when the character does not have trap sense.
Thoughts in light of that ?
I think that is a bad design choice.
I will still play it the way I play it in my games. I tend for more realism in my games.
nothing against the way you play your game, you've got ever right to play your way , but how is running it your way providing more realism ? I mean a favored class bonus is just a generic mechanical reward for staying within a single class.
It seems I misunderstood the argument. I agree with Phasic. There is a trait that allows you to choose a spell that lowers metamagic cost for that spell. By the rules nothing says it has to be a 1st level spell which is when you select character traits. I don't see much difference.
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nothing against the way you play your game, you've got ever right to play your way , but how is running it your way providing more realism ? I mean a favored class bonus is just a generic mechanical reward for staying within a single class.
Its more realistic by not having the ability to improve your skills or abilities before you even have them.
I cannot somehow improve my ability to speak Japanese before I even learn the language.
nothing against the way you play your game, you've got ever right to play your way , but how is running it your way providing more realism ? I mean a favored class bonus is just a generic mechanical reward for staying within a single class.Its more realistic by not having the ability to improve your skills or abilities before you even have them.
I cannot somehow improve my ability to speak Japanese before I even learn the language.
could it not instead represent your inherent affinity to pick it up faster once you start learning it ?
nothing against the way you play your game, you've got ever right to play your way , but how is running it your way providing more realism ? I mean a favored class bonus is just a generic mechanical reward for staying within a single class.Its more realistic by not having the ability to improve your skills or abilities before you even have them.
I cannot somehow improve my ability to speak Japanese before I even learn the language.
Well there is that, though I find it simply more balanced to not allow it, and I think the devs did not intend for it to work like that. I can't honestly speak for them though, in practice many things too good to be true get hit with errata. Let's wait and see.
That is not cheese, and you are not really improving the ability until you get all the favored class points you need. It can be easily fluffed as training yourself in certain aspect of trapfinding or whatever else the favored class point would apply to.
If you like, sure. Just not for me.
I am just a very anti-super OMG optimization person, so anything I see my players doing to try to cheeze (IMO) the system I put the hammer down.
fine line between well constructed and cheese ;)
you know the favored class bonuses are optional rules you can choose to not use them at all in your game
I am wondering what effect this wil have on the nature oracle's bonded mount, it will be quite scary I suppose, certinly will end up with more HD than the oracle at least.
I am wondering what effect this wil have on the nature oracle's bonded mount, it will be quite scary I suppose, certinly will end up with more HD than the oracle at least.
well either it caps at Oracle level 14 as a lv20 animal companion with 16HD and +12 BAB or it you continue the table out to level 30 in which case it would end up as nearly as strong as a full PC.
even the basic armor revelation gets interesting if you let it progress to effective oracle lv 30, +16 armor :)
But I agree that the most immediately powerful thing is to gain early entry into tricks like Weird, Moment of Prescience (Time), Greater Polymorph (Dark Tapestry).
Although in the grand scheme of things oracles are not powerful and all this is really doing is making more of the mysteries viable on the power curve vs other classes.
Among full-casting classes, the oracle is not especially powerful. If you include the other dozen or so classes in your "grand scheme of things", the oracle actually is pretty powerful. :)Although in the grand scheme of things oracles are not powerful and all this is really doing is making more of the mysteries viable on the power curve vs other classes.
I'd rate several of the 2/3 caster above oracle like Alchemist.
although comparing full caster to non caster classes is tricky at the best of times
Btw anyone got any comments on the second questions about the Asamir Feat ?
It's killing me, I have to say this. It's ASIMAR.
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Btw anyone got any comments on the second questions about the Asamir Feat ?It's killing me, I have to say this. It's ASIMAR.
Actually, it's Aasimar.
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Actually, it's Aasimar.Btw anyone got any comments on the second questions about the Asamir Feat ?It's killing me, I have to say this. It's ASIMAR.
Bwahahahaha :D