Hey,
First off I'd like to say that my girlfriend who's new to Pathfinder requested I make her a Stealthy, Acrobatic Magus. So, I've done so and the build is below.
Name: Tristan
Class: Rogue - Roof Runner/Scout, Magus
HP: 10 (1d8 Class, 1 Con, 1 Favoured Class)
AC: 17 (Chain Shirt, +3 Dex)
Level: 1
Age: 15 years old
Str: 14 +2
Dex: 16 +3
Con: 12 +1
Wis: 12 +1
Int: 16 +3 (+2 Race)
Cha: 7 -2
BAB: 0
CMB: 2
CMD: 15
Fort: 1 Ref: 5 Will: 1
Initiative: 5
Attack Bonus: 2
Ranged Attack Bonus: 3
Arcane Pool points at level 1: 4
Favoured Classes: Magus and Rogue - +1hp per level
Traits:
Magical Lineage - Shocking Grasp
Warrior of Old
Acrobatics: 7
Climb: 6
Disable Device: 7
Escape Artist: 7
Knowledge Arcana: 4 (7 when Magus)
Perception: 7
Sense Motive: 5
Spellcraft: 6 (9 when Magus)
Stealth: 10
Survival: 5
Swim: 6
Feats:
1. Rogue - Sneak Attack 1d6, Roof Running (Ex)
Feat - Skill Focus: Stealth, Ancestral Arms - Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
2. Magus - Arcane Pool, Cantrips, Spell Combat
3. Magus - Spellstrike
Feat - Intensified Spell: Shocking Grasp
4. Magus - Magus Arcana: Close Range
5. Rogue - Evasion, Tumbling Descent (Ex), Rogue Talent - Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
Feat - Skill Focus: Acrobatics
6. Magus - Spell Recall
7. Magus - Bonus Feat
Feat - Elemental Spell: Acid
Feat - Extra Rogue Talent: Fast Stealth
8. Magus - Magus Arcana: Arcane Accuracy
9. Rogue - Sneak Attack 2d6
Feat - Extra Rogue Talent: Nimble Climber
10. Magus - Knowledge Pool, Medium Armor
11. Magus - Improved Spell Combat
Feat - Critical Focus
12. Magus - Magus Arcana: Ghost Blade - Brilliant Energy
13. Rogue - Scout's Charge (Ex), Rogue Talent: Expert Leaper
Feat - Lightning Reflexes
14. Magus - Fighter Training
15. Magus - Bonus Feat, Improved Spell Recall
Feat - Extra Magus Arcana: Accurate Strike
Feat - Weapon Specialisation
16. Magus - Magus Arcana: Arcane Cloak
17. Rogue - Sneak Attack 3d6
Feat - Extra Arcane Pool
Comments and criticism's welcome as always, but I think I've done my job as this is to me, a pretty strong build, considering it's multi-classed. :)
Now, my questions about Brilliant Energy for a Magus are as follows:
1. Does Brilliant Energy cost 6 Arcane Pool Points as it's a +4 Weapon Bonus cost, even though you pay +1 to get it on your Magus list, on top of the standard +1 a Magus uses to increase his weapon to a +1 weapon? This is adding the Brilliant Energy ability through Ghost Blade at Magus Arcana level 9.
2. Once cast from the Arcane Pool, is there a way to make Brilliant Energy permanent without increasing the Weapon Bonus to a +10, through the spell Permanency?
Note: The idea with the weapon is to make it a +6 Weapon, adding keen at magic upgrade 1 and holy at upgrade 2, boosting it to a +6 weapon eventually, where the Arcane Pool makes +4 into a +5, essentially giving you a +7 weapon instead of a +6 for free.
This is for a Rise of the Runelords campaign I started running on Tuesday. Thanks for the help! :)
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OK, lets address the big questions first.
Why did you bother multi-classing? The benefits you get from going rogue (sneak attack and a few more skill points a level) are nowhere near the cost of giving up 5 levels of spell casting (you give up all her 5th & 6th level spells, drop her spell DC's and lose out on 6+ spells cast per day).
As for what the rogue is giving her can all be replaced with any of the flying spells and bumping her Int up.
As for sneak attack it's an extra 3D6 on her only attack each round for a net decrease in damage over just blasting with a shocking grasp and full attacking.
Multi-classing is BAD for arcane casters unless it's strictly something you need to make your casting better, anything else makes you weaker.
A better, faster and easier route to get her what she wants is to simply stay pure Magus with the Hexcrafter Archetype and take Vanish (and greater invis), Flight Hex, Prehensile Hair and grab a wand of Knock. Spend a few skillpoints in the roguish skills and this gives you your sneaky, acrobatic Magus with 10 times the utility, survivability and damage output.
Really these days there is NEVER a reason to play a rogue unless you just want the class title.
Now as for your questions.
1. No, Brilliant energy cost one additional arcane point when you empower your weapon. In this case you'd spend 2 arcane points to add +3 to the weapon AND Brilliant energy.
2. No, permanency only works on spells cast and the Arcane Pool is a supernatural effect.
Finally to clear up some of the illegal points in this build.
A. No weapon can have more than a +5 bonus on it, after it hits +5 everything else must be a weapon enchant type (flaming, keen, etc)
B. The only way to get Holy is to take Devoted Blade at 12th Magus level (level 17 by your build).
Okay, time for a huge post. Apologies! :)
I'm pretty sure anyone can give their weapon the Holy property as you're spending an upgrade point on it.
The way I was going to do it was get her to spend the money for a +6 weapon, so she can use two of those points to add Keen and Holy and keep the rest as the weapons +4 Magic Weapon property.
As for the +5 property, I know. That's why I explained it would be a +7 and specifically said it would be a +5 weapon with the Keen and Holy properties which make it a +7. They are enchantments, so the weapon still stays at +5, but is considered +7 to determine the cost of those two Enchantments. ;)
No permanency. That's ok, as your first point states that it only costs 2 Arcane Points to Enchant the weapon with Brilliant Energy. However, I'm not sure how you're getting a +3 Bonus as well as Brilliant Energy?
As for the Hexcrafter advice, I really don't think they're that good for the build. Maybe that's because I don't fully understand the Hexcrafter or because I think it's subpar for what it does. I wouldn't ever give up Spell Recall.
I also multi-classed because it was the only way to make this build. She wanted a roof running, acrobatic, NON INVISIBLE stealth character who was just as good at wielding a Sword as he is using Magic. She also liked the idea of Sneak Attack and my usual GM has it in his head that you get Sneak Attack on every attack you make per round, so that's what I'm allowing (unless it's really not intended to be played like that, in which case I hope somebody tells me). There's nothing that says it doesn't. So long as they're flat-footed or being flanked, it seems to work fine to me. That's how it's activated, so she should get that 3d6 on every attack she makes in her round. That's pretty good.
I told her that what she wants is impossible for one class and that she'd lose out on spells and she was fine with that, just wanting to have a 10d6 shocking grasp, so I gave her that and tried my best to optimise for that one trick. She also didn't seem to care about the level 5 and 6 Spells. None of them applied to her, as in, she didn't want any of them when she looked at them.
Also, are you allowed to put Wizard Spells on your Spell List when choosing your spells as a Magus each level? I don't think you can and from what I'm aware of, the only way to get Wizard spells is by finding them in a campaign/Wizard's spell book and then adding them to your own, but I just wanted to check.
I could easily be wrong, but as far as I know, when Spell Striking, if you hit with a weapon, the spell automatically hits, which would mean there is no Save, so it wouldn't matter how low her DC is. As I said though, I could be wrong on that, but primarily it doesn't matter anyway, because her main form of attacking is Shocking Grasp, which she'll change to Acidic Grasp, if anything's immune to Shock Damage.
After our first session, it's clear she wants a heavily acrobatic Magus, because she climbs onto rooftops whenever possible.
I don't really see how her damage will be lower than if she'd have stayed true Magus, because there are only a few spells that can deal more than 10d6 damage and with her sneak attack on top, along with her multiple weapon attacks and tiny bit of strength, I personally see this as having a better damage output than a straight Magus.
She'd only be able to use her Magic Weapon and Brilliant Energy combo 6 times a day, but it lasts a minute with each swift action, so she's set really. Most encounters shouldn't last more than 5 rounds usually. That's half a minute.
Anyway, your Shocking Grasp can only go up to 5d6 with your caster level and Intensified Spell is what makes it 10d6. That can't climb any higher, so she reaches that no problem and in one round would deal 10d6 + 1d10 + 1d10 + 1d10 + 1d10 + 8 + 3d6 sneak (12d6 sneak if it counts on each hit like my GM said it does).
Even if it is just 3d6 on her round and not 3d6 on each attack, that's still 10d6 + 1d10 + 1d10 + 1d10 + 1d10 + 8 + 3d6 = 126 max (75 average) without a critical, a possible 342 damage if the crit card gives you a x3 as well as the x3 weapon crit card (4 times - impossible, but I'm using this as an example) and combined with Brilliant Energy, she doesn't need to worry about missing things too much. These are all just calculations based on theory as you won't draw a x3 for every attack, but still the damage output is high.
Single Classing wasn't an option, which is why I stated it was a Multi-Classed build in the opening post. :)
Thanks for answering my questions though. I was really unsure on how adding such expensive weapon properties would work (I'm most familiar with Fighter Classes, but from using a Cleric and a Magus before, I have a good understanding, just not a full understanding).
...Also, are you allowed to put Wizard Spells on your Spell List when choosing your spells as a Magus each level? I don't think you can and from what I'm aware of, the only way to get Wizard spells is by finding them in a campaign/Wizard's spell book and then adding them to your own, but I just wanted to check....
No. You do not get wizard spells. The only way you could get wizard spells that I can remember is with the pathfinder savant prestige class(I think). iirc, that allows you to take spells from another list.
Spellbooks: A magus must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook except for read magic, which all magi can prepare from memory. A magus begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level magus spells plus three 1st-level magus spells of his choice. The magus also selects a number of additional 1st-level magus spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to his spellbook. At each new magus level, he gains two new magus spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new magus level) for his spellbook. At any time, a magus can also add spells found in other spellbooks to his own (see Arcane Spells).
A magus can learn spells from a wizard's spellbook, just as a wizard can from a magus's spellbook. The spells learned must be on the magus spell list, as normal.
Yea, thinking about it, it makes sense that yes you can learn Wizard Spells, but they have to be on the Magus Spell List from the list of Magus Spells in the PRD.
That's fair enough.
There is a Magus arcane power that let's you add wizard spells. I agree that taking rogue is in necessary. Change your traits to ones that add stealth and acrobatics as class skills. There is also a Magus arcane pool power which let's you boost stealth.
Sneak attack applies to every attack that qualifies however.
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Ok, let's see if we can clarify this a bit.
Are you suggesting that she's going to go and BUY a +5 weapon and then use the arcane pool to improve it further (doable but massively expensive 50,000 gp expensive)?
Usually a Magi will spend a point from their Arcane Pool to get an enhancement bonus to their weapon based on their level.
Since she will never get to level 17 her arcane pool cannot give her a +5 weapon that way, she'll have to buy at least a +2 weapon to get there.
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal.
In this case as a 12th level Magi she'd be able to add +3 to her weapon either as a flat +3 hit/damage or a +1 and any combination of the allowed weapon enchants from the allowed list up to +2 total cost (flaming AND frost or Keen AND shock or just Keen and an additional +1).
As you can see from the list above the ONLY enchants the arcane pool can put on a weapon are "dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal", nothing else. If you want to add Holy to the weapon you'll either have to pay to permanently make the weapon Holy or take the Devoted Blade arcana at 12th level.
(The ghost blade option allows you to add Brilliant energy to this list but doesn't automatically add it onto the weapon, it comes out of that +3 pool as well and since she is limited to a max of +3 added to a weapon she can never add this power).
Hexcrafter is better then Spell Recall on so many levels it's embarrassing. Spell recall lets you recover a couple of spells you've already used a few times a day giving you slightly more staying power but you're still stuck with the problems casting in combat. Hexcrafter gives you at-will abilities that never run out, don't provoke AoO's, ignore spell resistance and scale with level (all have DC's equal to your highest level spells, always). Depending on which you take they EASILY shore up the weaknesses the Magus class has (poor Bab, Concentration checks and Low DC's on your spells).
Now as for the stealthy, acrobatic roof running type the only thing the rogue class gives you is a slight bonus on roof running over the Magus. All of those things are handled by ranks in skills and those are all magus skills too. Plus with the Magi's high Int score it usually equals or exceeds the rogue on skill points to spend on those choices.
Sneak attack is nice when it goes off and as long as the conditions are met it can go off on every attack it's just that it's so erratic and easy to prevent that most of us go meh. (a 5' step or any amount of concealment prevent it from working) Also as a scout archetype is mostly built around charging for SA damage if she doesn't intend to do that nevermind that comment.
Magi have their own spell list and can only pick spells from that list I have no idea what you mean by picking wizard spells.
Now as for your estimated damage output just wanted to remind you that as TWO 3/4 BaB classes she's going to max out with a +12/+7/+2 on attacks and is unlikely to be hitting very often.
Finally just to put this all in one place so you can see what I'm saying easier.
Your build:
Can't ever get Brilliant energy
Has very few Arcane Pool Points (9pts and you spend 2-3 per fight)
Can never wear medium or heavy armor
Has fewer spells per day
Can never cast teleport, telekinesis, overland flight, any wall or cloud spell, or polymorph into any of the great combat forms.
Has a lower total to hit & damage bonus
Lower AC
Worse saving throws
More M.A.D (multiple attribute dependency)
On the plus side though it does have
More skill points (maybe 10-12 more)
Occasional hits harder on melee damage.
Hmm, with the Sneak Attacking, she does plan to charge in for a Sneak Attack, which is why I grabbed Fast Stealth for her, but thing is, she doesn't get that until much later on which sucks and if someone 5 foot steps away from her, could she not 5 foot step towards them on her turn again and get more SA's in?
Armour: She'll be wearing light until she can afford to make Mithral Breastplate, which is light as you know.
Back to Brilliant Energy, I thought you said last time it only cost two Arcane Pool points, so didn't realise it needed her to be able to improve her Weapon by +4. I mean is there not a way around this, such as by making your weapon have a +1 free after buying the +1 Keen and Holy Enchantments, then putting the +3 from Magus levels on top to cast Brilliant Energy? The Magus' Arcane Pool enchancements stack onto the weapon's (oddly, but they do. People do it all of the time on here, but you might know this already), so it would add up to a +4 Weapon with the Keen and Holy properties always being on the weapon.
As for paying 50k, yea, that was the plan....to save up for a +6 weapon where two of those points are Holy and Keen, with the other 4 being the weapon damage of a normal +4 atk and dmg Magic Weapon. Judging from this though, she'll have to get (purchase) a +3 weapon so she can get Keen and Holy with +1 left over, then by the time she can get Ghost Blade for Brilliant Energy, that +1 will be left over with a +3 from the Magus' Arcane Pool enhancement, making a +4 to put Brilliant Energy on it, with the option of paying for a +7 weapon (yea, really getting expensive now!) for if she wants a +4 damage bonus on top of it after.
So, that's a +7 weapon with a +3 Arcane Pool enchancement added to it, for Keen, Holy, Brilliant Energy and a +4 Atk and Damage bonus. Not bad, just hugely expensive, which would mean unless she found decent treasure, all of her funds would go on her weapon alone.
For Saves and AC I guess the standard Magus is better (sheerly because she'd have more money to get boosting items), but for what she wants I think this is fine.
I don't know how rich the PC's can get in Rise of the Runelords, but I'd have thought she'd be able to afford at least this +7 weapon, even if she can't afford anything else after it, but then her character should find some pretty decent treasure along the way. :/
Lastly, I was asking about the Wizard Spells because it says under Magus that a Magus can learn spells from a Wizard's Spellbook, but after I interpreted it correctly, I realised that was only if the Wizard Spells were also on the Magus spell list. :)
Confusion sorted. :p
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Hmm, with the Sneak Attacking, she does plan to charge in for a Sneak Attack, which is why I grabbed Fast Stealth for her, but thing is, she doesn't get that until much later on which sucks and if someone 5 foot steps away from her, could she not 5 foot step towards them on her turn again and get more SA's in?
Armour: She'll be wearing light until she can afford to make Mithral Breastplate, which is light as you know.
Back to Brilliant Energy, I thought you said last time it only cost two Arcane Pool points, so didn't realise it needed her to be able to improve her Weapon by +4. I mean is there not a way around this, such as by making your weapon have a +1 free after buying the +1 Keen and Holy Enchantments, then putting the +3 from Magus levels on top to cast Brilliant Energy? The Magus' Arcane Pool enchancements stack onto the weapon's (oddly, but they do. People do it all of the time on here, but you might know this already), so it would add up to a +4 Weapon with the Keen and Holy properties always being on the weapon.
As for paying 50k, yea, that was the plan....to save up for a +6 weapon where two of those points are Holy and Keen, with the other 4 being the weapon damage of a normal +4 atk and dmg Magic Weapon. Judging from this though, she'll have to get (purchase) a +3 weapon so she can get Keen and Holy with +1 left over, then by the time she can get Ghost Blade for Brilliant Energy, that +1 will be left over with a +3 from the Magus' Arcane Pool enhancement, making a +4 to put Brilliant Energy on it, with the option of paying for a +7 weapon (yea, really getting expensive now!) for if she wants a +4 damage bonus on top of it after.
So, that's a +7 weapon with a +3 Arcane Pool enchancement added to it, for Keen, Holy, Brilliant Energy and a +4 Atk and Damage bonus. Not bad, just hugely expensive, which would mean unless she found decent treasure, all of her funds would go on her weapon alone.
For Saves and AC I guess the standard Magus is better (sheerly because she'd have more money to get boosting items), but for what she wants I think this is fine.
I don't know how rich the PC's can get in Rise of the Runelords, but I'd have thought she'd be able to afford at least this +7 weapon, even if she can't afford anything else after it, but then her character should find some pretty decent treasure along the way. :/
Lastly, I was asking about the Wizard Spells because it says under Magus that a Magus can learn spells from a Wizard's Spellbook, but after I interpreted it correctly, I realised that was only if the Wizard Spells were also on the Magus spell list. :)
Confusion sorted. :p
My comment of just sending 1 extra was if she only went pure magus.
As for your ideas of how to get Brilliant energy on her weapon will not work. The way the arcane pool works requires any bonus ability applied to the weapon to come from the pool itself. if you have a pool bonus of +3 you are limited to enchants of up to +3 value. The pool stacks on TOP of what the weapon already has but you can't take any plusses from the weapon and add them to the pool.
For her to be able to add Brilliant energy she will need a minimum of +4 from her arcane pool which she won't get until she has 13 levels of Magus. If you change it to Magus 13, Rogue 4 then she'd qualify.
As for buying a +4 weapon and putting keen and holy on it THEN adding Brilliant energy, well that won't work either. Weapons are limited to a maximum of +10 and that would make this a +11 weapon.
(+4 base, +1 for Keen, +2 for Holy & +4 for Brilliant equals +11)
Anyway if she saves every penny and never buys anything (not even a beer in the bar) she'll be able to afford the base +4 weapon around 8th level.
Ah, my mistake. I thought Holy was a +1 for some reason.
Well, I guess I could do things differently then. Get her to buy a +7 weapon, add Brilliant Energy to it, along with Holy and Keen, then just use the Magus' Arcane Pool to get her the +3 atk and dmg on her rolls.
I guess that's the only workable way. If she were Magus the whole way through, she could have a +5 at level 17, but then she'd lose most of these Stealth abilities.
Also, I may as well sort out a whole new tree of feats for all of the Magus Arcana's then, because she no longer needs Ghost Blade etc. Shame really, but I think buying the properties is the best way for it.
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Ah, my mistake. I thought Holy was a +1 for some reason.
Well, I guess I could do things differently then. Get her to buy a +7 weapon, add Brilliant Energy to it, along with Holy and Keen, then just use the Magus' Arcane Pool to get her the +3 atk and dmg on her rolls.
I guess that's the only workable way. If she were Magus the whole way through, she could have a +5 at level 17, but then she'd lose most of these Stealth abilities.
Also, I may as well sort out a whole new tree of feats for all of the Magus Arcana's then, because she no longer needs Ghost Blade etc. Shame really, but I think buying the properties is the best way for it.
If you want to do it that way sure.
Personally we find it's easier to buy a regular +x weapon and then use the arcane pool to put whatever special ability on it the situation needs. If you buy a flaming sword and fight a creature immune to fire that's a wasted ability, for a Magus you just throw Frost on it instead and get to work.As for stealthy abilities I have no idea what you're talking about. The only things the rogue adds that the Magus doesn't already have is the sneak attack and it's nice but I'd rather have more spells, saves and HP.
Well, I mean more along the lines of Rogue Talents and the Roof Runner ability in particular. It allows you to rebound off of a wall while descending and if you succeed on the role, you take no damage and land fine, just so long as there's a wall to rebound off of.
You get Fast Stealth from the Rogue Talents. That's not accessible to a Magus and yea, the Sneak Attack damage too. :)
Brilliant Energy and Keen are ones that I'll have her add as they're always useful, then I'll see about putting Holy on the actual weapon itself or waiting until 12th level Magus to do it.
Anyway, thanks for the help. :)
...If she were Magus the whole way through, she could have a +5 at level 17, but then she'd lose most of these Stealth abilities...
What people are saying is that you don't really lose much stealth ability if you are not a rogue.
If you are straight magus then all you would potentially lose is the +3 of it being a class skill and a few skill points to spread around. But with some traits and or a feat you can easily make that up. You will lose the sneak attack damage, but spells will more than make up for it. yes, an intensified shocking grasp is +10d6. But you could have an empowered intensified shocking grasp for +15d6, a maximized intensified shocking grasp for +60, or etc... Or some of the really kool higher level spells. More spells per day. Larger arcane pool. Etc... There are other ways to increase your speed than fast stealth.
That is part of why many people feel the rogue is so completely under powered in PF. (I don't feel as strongly, but it is a bit under par.) The sneak attack damage can be out done by many other methods. Other classes get almost as many skill points. The non-class skill penalty is only a -3 it no longer has the half ranks and double cost. Even that +3 can be gotten back on your crucial skills through trait selection. Also, since many skills were combined, you don't need to be as good at nearly as many skills.
Even if you are going to take rogue for the class skill boost, I would only take 1 level (or maybe 2 to get evasion).
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Well, I mean more along the lines of Rogue Talents and the Roof Runner ability in particular. It allows you to rebound off of a wall while descending and if you succeed on the role, you take no damage and land fine, just so long as there's a wall to rebound off of.
You get Fast Stealth from the Rogue Talents. That's not accessible to a Magus and yea, the Sneak Attack damage too. :)
Brilliant Energy and Keen are ones that I'll have her add as they're always useful, then I'll see about putting Holy on the actual weapon itself or waiting until 12th level Magus to do it.
Anyway, thanks for the help. :)
Well remember, Brilliant Energy only ignores Armor & shield bonuses, it has no effect on the rest of the AC boosting methods. It also has ZERO effect on Undead, Constructs or Objects (all things that are kinda common especially in most of the original AP's)
As for the roof runner and falling... Eh. She already has access to Feather Fall and Fly so you never take damage falling and can move across roofs twice as fast (and quiet) as that archetype gives you.
But if that's what she wants go for it.